Primary Street Discussion

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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:29 pm

Riamus wrote:I think that's a good start and perhaps a good end, though without seeing a sample and considering how it would affect roads and highways, I'm not certain right now. I'm wondering if it may be valuable to include in there something saying that all labeled highways are minor highways as a minimum. That would take care of any question about highways similar to the county highway system in Michigan, where the roads really aren't much different (if any) from normal streets as far as how it's looks.

I already included that provision for state highways, but sure, including county highways would make sense too—at least in Michigan. I don't know that all county roads or county routes should be included, though, and other states may not make the distinction. Perhaps this is best decided per-state.

I would suggest having a discussion of proposed changes in the main Wiki forum before making those changes, though. Since it affects more than just Michigan, I think we need more comment on it.

Absolutely. At the point we are at in both this and the US forum highways discussion, I think it's a good time to make a Wiki proposal. I'll draft one up and post it tonight.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby robc007 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:33 am

I got routed on to an unfamiliar "primary street" today that wasn't paved in a thousand-foot stretch near the middle. Now that's not cool! :lol: Fixed the map as soon as I got home.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby Riamus » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:56 pm

sketch wrote:
Riamus wrote:I think that's a good start and perhaps a good end, though without seeing a sample and considering how it would affect roads and highways, I'm not certain right now. I'm wondering if it may be valuable to include in there something saying that all labeled highways are minor highways as a minimum. That would take care of any question about highways similar to the county highway system in Michigan, where the roads really aren't much different (if any) from normal streets as far as how it's looks.

I already included that provision for state highways, but sure, including county highways would make sense too—at least in Michigan. I don't know that all county roads or county routes should be included, though, and other states may not make the distinction. Perhaps this is best decided per-state.


Absolutely. I don't include Michigan's county roads in this either. Only the county highway system. You are right that such may be best on a per-state basis. We could specify county highways and clearly state that this does not include county roads or routes that are not signed or something like that. Anyhow, I'll take a look at what you came up with once I get through all my watched threads. I wasn't around for the long weekend, so I'm way behind.

Edit: I looked for a topic in the Wiki forum, but didn't see one. Am I missing it in a different forum, or did you not have a chance yet to set it up, sketch? Not trying to rush you. I just want to make sure that I am not missing it somewhere.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby mswhite60 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Having read this I now understand that there is more work to do than simple turn restrictions and road direction issues in play in my ridiculous experience over Labor Day weekend:

viewtopic.php?f=630&t=60905&p=541614#p541614


While I do not live there, I know Alpena County well as that is where I grew up. I can help if needed.

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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby Riamus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:22 am

See my reply in that thread. Any help you can provide to fix up the roads and possibly add in the county highways would be greatly appreciated. Be sure to read through the editing Wiki pages so you know how to do the editing correctly and don't be afraid to ask for clarification on how to do something before attempting it. Some mistakes aren't easily fixed. :)
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:26 am

Sorry, I've been extremely busy with school starting back up again. I haven't had time to really be on the forums much at all, and definitely not to do any serious editing or draft a big proposal.

I should have some free time a couple evenings this coming week. Hopefully I'll be able to draft it then.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby Riamus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:48 pm

Just a reminder regarding a Wiki discussion.

Also, have we decided what to do regarding minor collectors? These truly are very minor roads and giving them equal footing with more important roads seems wrong to me. They may have a slightly more important value than regular streets, but not really that much more. If we mark them as primary, it leaves them appearing to be as important as major collectors and potentially even some arterials that don't fit well as highways (at least until we make all arterials minor highways by default). Because Waze does not have as many classifications, I think that minor collectors should be Street by default and only be raised to a higher level if there is a good reason. Major collectors can be Primary by default. And arterials as Minor Highway by default. They can all of course be raised on a case-by-case basis. Does that sound right to everyone? I think it makes sense to have the baseline for minor collectors as Street and only raise it when the individual street has enough value for it to be raised. It would be different if we had more classifications in Waze to work with. Thoughts?

Just to give some examples... look on the NFC map at the two minor collectors between Pickerel and Mitchell roads east of Petoskey, south of Crooked Lake and Pickerel Lake. What makes either of those two roads more important or valuable than the road right between them on that map? That road is a paved road just like those and unlike the minor collector on the right, it doesn't make two 90 degree corners. I'm sure MDOT has a reason, but from our point of view using Waze, do we want Waze to consider those roads to be more important? If I was driving there and wanted to move between those roads, I'd certainly prefer one of the two straight roads instead of having to make two 90 degree turns.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:33 pm

Sorry, I've been a lot busier than I expected the past couple weeks.

With regard to the two minor collectors, the answer is, I believe, redundancy. I've studied the functional class map for the New Orleans area and, although most of it makes sense to me, sometimes I find a street I consider to be a "collector"-type street but that isn't classified in any category. Every time, I find that there's another parallel street running nearby that is considered a "collector", making the street in question redundant.

Another thing I've found is that streets I don't usually think of as terribly important are considered to be collectors, generally because there isn't another street in the immediate area that could serve its purpose.

It seems that the functional classification system is designed such that you're never too far from a road that's in the system.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby Riamus » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:24 am

I do understand there are reasons for the classifications on the state's end. My question is whether or not we label every single minor collector as a primary street when in many cases, it really isn't necessary.
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Re: Primary Street Discussion

Postby sketch » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:10 pm

I think it's a good idea. FHWA thinks they're relatively important and besides, it makes the determination easy. That's part of the point—eliminate discomfort and disagreement with the current subjective method of street type selection.
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