Road classification update

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Re: Road classification update

Postby Binky71 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:24 pm

Cool. I'll start using these new standards immediately. But as you probably realize, many editors just go off the Wiki, with little to no reference to these forums. There will be lots of knashing of teeth in the near future.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby Riamus » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Yeah, you'll find many locked ramps. That can vary, though. In most places I've looked, ramps are often left unlocked and only the interstates (or highways) are locked. There are good and bad to locking ramps or leaving them unlocked and you'll see the locks vary from place to place. Ramp names aren't really critical because what's often there is at least good enough for directions, but whenever you do have access to them, I'd go ahead and fix them to match the signs. I try to run down all of the ramps in my areas one after another on a highway or interstate and fix them every so often if needed, but my area in Michigan is currently just the northern part of the the state. It's up to you if you want to report locked ramps that need updated or just leave them.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby davielde » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:44 pm

Thanks Riamus. I have made the request for unlocking the one primary street segment in the unlock and update forum. There are a few other areas where I have requested unlocks as well.
Truthfully, I've never touched a ramp because most of them in my area are locked with rank 5. I'll start paying more attention in the future, but it may require an area manager to sweep through since so many are locked at 5.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby Riamus » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:47 pm

I'm not sure that "exit" is wrong there (from S Hamilton to I-94 E or W). There aren't exit numbers, but it still has all of the characteristics of an exit, including the Big Green Sign. S Huron to I-94 E might be questionable as it doesn't really feel as much like an exit and it only has just a small green sign saying to turn, but even then, I think exit is okay. They may seem odd to someone, but it's still valid, in my opinion. But like CBenson said, we could still avoid that by giving a larger angle to the ramp if that's what we want. Personally, I don't consider any of these to be turns. I'd think of all of them as exits just because of how they look. Sure, you don't have exits within the city itself, but that does seem like an exit to me at I-94.

One thing that does need fixed, though... On S Huron just south of I-94, there is a short segment that is set to Primary Street between the Major and Minor Highway segments. You may have left that because it's locked. If so, just request the fix in the unlock forum or here.

Also, the ramp names do not match the Wiki standards. S Hamilton to I-94 W should include I-94 W / US-12 / Ann Arbor. S Hamilton to I-94 E should include I-94 E / US-12 / Detroit. S Huron to I-94 E should probably include I-94 E / Detroit based on the small green sign. And S Huron to I-94 W should include I-94 W / Ann Arbor. Three of those are based on the BGS, which is how the ramps should be named.

And although I don't think we've really come up with a standard format in Michigan for unnumbered exits, I think "Exit" should be included in the ramp name. The question comes up as to how to name these. "to" is used in ramps to indicate that you're getting onto a road that will take you to another road. It isn't really used for saying that you are turning directly onto that road. But if you say "to XXX" or "Exit to XXX", you end up giving it a different meaning. At that point, how do you differentiate between a ramp that places you directly on I-94 E and an exit that is placing you onto another road that will take you to I-94 E if the ramp just says "Exit to I-94 E" or "to I-94 E"? With exit numbers, it's easy... "Exit 123: to I-94 E" vs. "Exit 123: I-94 E". But without an exit number, it becomes muddled. There is some minor discussion on this and some thought of using a format like "Exit: I-94 E" and "Exit: to I-94 E" depending on whether or not you're directly getting onto the highway or just heading towards it. The downside is you run into longer TTS... "Exit at Exit: I-94 E" or "Exit at Exit: to I-94 E" instead of just "Exit to I-94 E". But it does differentiate between what you're actually doing, so it could go either way. With a numbered exit, it would be "Exit at Exit 123: I-94 E" or "Exit at Exit 123: to I-94 E". So using "Exit:" would fit with numbered exits. It's just a little unusual. Anyhow, it's something I think we may want to discuss at some point. In the meantime, it really doesn't matter which format is used as long as the ramp name includes what's on the BGS.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby CBenson » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:28 pm

The effect of road type on instructions has been in place for quite some time. Its been documented here: https://www.waze.com/wiki/How_Waze_dete ... _maneuvers There are certainly nuances that aren't in that write up like the inability of waze to give exit left instructions in right hand drive jurisdictions, but it gives the basics. There have been complaints for some time regarding exit instruction when bearing off of highway road types. You can avoid this by making the angle of deflection over 45 degrees to induce a turn instruction instead.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby davielde » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:24 pm

Here's the permalink for the ramp onto I-94 from S Hamilton:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-83.61 ... TT&env=usa
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Re: Road classification update

Postby Riamus » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Can you give a permalink for that? I haven't really looked into how turn instructions work. I know that ramps create the exit instruction, but I didn't know there was a difference based on road classification. That may be something we need to look into with Waze.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby davielde » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:05 am

From what I experienced in the Ann Arbor area after upgrading to match NFC classifications, the ability to find alternate routes has improved. The only routing oddity that has come about so far was being told to "exit" off a principal arterial that has now been reclassified as a major highway. Since the arterial is not a limited access highway, it may be misleading for users who are expecting to "turn" instead of exit. In this case, I was "exiting" onto I-94.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby Riamus » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:35 pm

There is a US discussion for changes to the Wiki that includes either the same NFC guidelines we're using or something similar whenever it is finished. That could be a long time from now. And until they do, the Wiki isn't going to change. We could set up our own state page showing how we're classifying roads in Michigan if anyone wants to do so. At least that way, we'd have it in writing until the US changes get figured out and accepted.

We've had various discussions regarding the road classifications in Michigan in particular and those who were part of those discussions decided that the NFC classifications along with marking roads in the County Highway System as at least minor highways was the best way to go in Michigan. Previously, just about every road other than state or US highway or freeway in the top half of the lower peninsula and the UP was just a Street. This left very large areas without any roads nearby that were anything other than Street. Not only could this cause routing problems - people were getting routed up to Mackinaw and back south just because there weren't routes across the state - but it simply looked bad. Using the NFC has cleaned up those issues greatly.

The Wiki itself is wrong and I think just about everyone agrees with that even if they don't yet agree on a specific standard for the US. How a road looks really plays no role in the value or importance of the road. If the state or county spends a ton of money on their roads so that every road looks like a high classification, that doesn't mean every road should be a high classification. And if a state or county spends basically nothing on their roads, that doesn't mean none of their roads are better than Streets. Functional classifications are the best way to classify the roads. If the road is functionally a principal arterial, then it should not be a low classification no matter how it looks. In some places, you'll never see a highway that would fit into the Major Highway classification based on the Wiki anywhere within 50-100 miles. That creates routing problems and is really bad classification considering the DOT will have chosen certain roads through the area to be arterials - main roads to be used to get through the area. Between editors who have been taking part in the discussions and the previous regional coordinator, it was decided to go with this classification. The new regional coordinator appears to agree as well with the discussions we have had.

Edited to fix some wording.
Last edited by Riamus on Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Road classification update

Postby Binky71 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Hey guys, I just started changing some of the road classifications back before I found this thread.

The thing that confuses me is that these guidelines don't match the guidelines in the Wiki. Did somebody "on high" decide we're doing this? Why don't we update the Wiki if it's out of date?
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