I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR  Topic is solved

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I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR

Postby anthogna » Tue May 13, 2014 12:23 am

Hi all,

davielde suggested I drop a note if I ever did something odd (or at least I think it might be odd) to try and resolve a UR. This one is just about 2 miles from my house and I'm pretty familiar with the interchange:

Link to Map

I ran the route from Washington Ave S to I-696 E in LiveMap and saw the same directions that the user reported, which, while technically correct (eh, maybe...if you know where you're going...) would be confusing/incomplete.

This all has to do with what I'm going to call an access road that runs under the Detroit Zoo parking deck and is fed from Washington S and a feeder from Woodward S (local). The access road then has a junction at 10 Mile, where people can turn right and either proceed on 10 Mile W or merge onto I-696 W. Drivers can also proceed straight to go through a multi-lane overpass that services 10 Mile E (with I-696 E), or Woodward S (local).

On the map, the feeder from Woodward S to the 696 access road was classified as Street. The feeder from Washington S to the access road was also classified as Street as well but I don't think it was named. The rest of the access road was unnamed, and the multi-lane bridge was an unnamed street like a lot of interstitial turnarounds on divided MHs.

What I did: Taking a cue from the MI best practice for labeling Michigan Lefts, I converted the whole access road set to Ramps and gave them appropriate names (to W 10 Mile Rd E / to I-696, etc.) From what I know of how this ramp notation provides additional spoken directions, I believe this should provide the extra spoken/written directions that make taking this route more followable.

This should also hopefully keep folks from doing what the UR user did which is to turn too soon (onto Woodward S), thus triggering a re-route that wouldn't complete in time to provide the "Turn Right on W 10 Mile Rd E(ast) then take a left" (since the overpass lanes were unnamed.)

I will test this on LiveMap sometime tomorrow unless someone here thinks there would be a better way to handle this.

Thanks all...
~~Anthogna
Metro Detroit Area

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Re: I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR

Postby anthogna » Tue May 13, 2014 11:15 am

Well, I know a "stay to the left" certainly applies at the final ramp to 696 (as you also noted in your note on the UR), and was appropriate for that. It will also likely appear at the end of the overpass to 10 Mile Eastbound (where you highlighted), and that will be fine as well considering what I'm really trying to do here is get them to the other side of the highway (and to the on-ramp that the UR's "stay to the left" refers to) with meaningful instructions. The signage at the end of the overpass (which I emulated in the ramp name for that overpass) will hopefully be sufficient for lane selection, but even that's not my main focus right now.

Before my change, there were not complete instructions to route the user to E 10 Mile Rd from Washington, it just implied "go straight until you're there."

LiveMap directions as of this morning (map hasn't updated, so it's the same as what I saw last night): Origin pin on Washington several blocks north of the changed area, Destination pin on I-696 E, a bit past the Campbell/Hilton exit (so ~.5 miles).

(Stay Straight) (toward) E 10 Mile Rd
After .5 miles, (Keep to the left) to I-696/Port Huron [this is the name of the on-ramp segment]
After .55 miles Approach destination


So yeah, okay. Technically correct (keep following the road without turn choices until you get to E 10 Mile Rd, which is at Main St, then keep left at the on-ramp to I-696 E) Meanwhile, the driver veers to the right (at the end of Washington), proceeds over the Woodward Express overpass to get to the at-grade connection set in question (which hangs to the left), then three of four lanes proceed over the 696 overpass and are forced left onto 10 Mile. Then the driver will reach E 10 Mile at Main (where W 10 Mile and E 10 Mile switches over), and then you're basically on top of the on-ramp at that point.

So yes, I will probably get that "stay to the left" and the end of the overpass with my changes (as well as on the 696 onramp where it already was.) I'm not trying to get rid of them, I'm more trying to get users intelligibly to the segment the "stay left" in the UR/pre-update route was in reference to in the first place :)

In the meantime, yay new LiveMap interface. Too bad it looks like they skipped the map sync as part of that rollout. But I work in IT Management so that makes sense to me. :)
~~Anthogna
Metro Detroit Area

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Re: I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR  Topic is solved

Postby anthogna » Fri May 16, 2014 2:55 pm

Just wanted to drop a note that after my first attempt went south (ha ha) I did a second attempt with a bit more detail that (at least in LiveMap) directing the way I wanted. I'm still going to do a few more real-world tests on it, and clean up the way it looks a bit, but this is sorted. Thanks all!
~~Anthogna
Metro Detroit Area

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Re: I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR

Postby davielde » Tue May 13, 2014 5:02 am

Thanks for tackling this. While some editors may consider it an "at grade connector" and therefore a ramp would not be appropriate, when viewed as a part of the larger picture of getting to 696 via 10 Mile--which is more of a service/frontage road for that purpose--it works. You definitely did not want a "Street" there though. There's a lot going on here with that access road, and I have a few comments that I'll try to post in the morning since it's so late. This post is more of a bookmark for me to remember...

In the meantime, the original UR mentioned "stay to the left" here. You're still going to get that instruction instead of "turn left". Do you know why? HINT: It has nothing to do with the segment names or road types that you adjusted, and it is a plague of inconsistency along every split road...
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Re: I-696/Woodward Royal Oak Interchange UR

Postby davielde » Fri May 16, 2014 6:33 pm

I can tell you right now that almost every editor who happens to see this second attempt will change it -- except me, and that's only because we're discussing it in the forums ;) .

There is a way to accomplish what you are trying to do without having so many "logical" separate segments.

The stay to the left/turn left junction that I was referencing before was actually the turn onto 10 Mile eastbound, and not the merge onto I-696. In this case, the turn angle is too shallow, but if you make it more than 45 degrees, it will generate a "turn" instruction. It's a 90 degree intersection, so "turn" would be more appropriate than "stay" for that junction. I changed the segment next to it as an example. In the app, we don't need finely detailed curves for these bridges since even at the most detailed zoom level, you cannot distinguish. You just need something that gets the correct instruction whether it be stay or turn for whatever is applicable.

Finally, if you do have segments legitimately cross where there is no junction involved, set one of the elevations so that they are different. Since both are currently "Ground", this will eventually generate an automated Map Problem complaining that a junction should be created. Changing one of the elevations to be logical instead of physical though will prevent that.

Don't worry, there's no "three strikes and you're out" here, so keep testing things out. Overall though, lean toward tweaking the setup that you had before. The goal should be simplicity rather than more complexity.
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