New road type - Narrow Street

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Re: New road type alley

Postby iainhouse » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:29 pm

jchiarav wrote:You should be able to choose to avoid them

That's a good point. As currently explained, avoiding alleys is not a preference.

An alley segment will have a penalty for all car users, so it has no value in mapping in order to express a routing preference.
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Re: New road type alley

Postby iainhouse » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:55 pm

vince1612 wrote:If a light penalty of 5-10min as announced cannot be put to good use for a community, then they're free to choose not to make use of this type at all and forbid their editors from adding it, but they shouldn't request from staff to "kill" it for the rest of the world who might want it because they dislike it.

I'm sorry but I think this points to a misunderstanding of the concerns we have about the way this has been introduced.

Nobody wants to "kill" it for the rest of the world. But we simply can not forbid our editors from using it because the majority of editors will never visit the forums. They're the noobs who jump in to map editing based on what they see in the editor, do a small number of edits and then stop again. They're the ones who add every lane of a parking lot; add every footpath they can see; complicate junctions with attempts to create lane guidance. This is just another road type they will use without recognising the implications or knowing the functions. And then the experienced editors who have better things to do will instead have to clean up after them.

I'm very pleased to see, a post or two above, someone who genuinely supports and wants this new type (assuming they know how it will work). I have no doubt that this wouldn't be arriving without a genuine need for it. I also sympathise with the US community, who are saying "don't use it at all".

The problem is not the new road type. The problem is that it has been released to production in an incomplete state, with no clear explanation available from WME for editors who don't come to the forums - and no clear explanation of staff of exactly what's intended. I don't car how clear you think the explanation is - the number of questions demonstrate it's plainly not clear enough.

I'll say it again - remember the Parking Project. Released to production seriously incomplete in features. Lacking clear explanations. Client implementation missing/wrong. A massively-flawed data import conducted without proper testing. Ignoring input from the community. The result is, a year or two down the line, it's still lacking required features and, as far as I know, most people regard it as dead.

Please don't let this new road type become another Parking Project. Take it back a step or two - out of Production and into Beta. Get the community on board and involved, so we understand the goals and implementation. Get the bugs out of it and the necessary support in to it. If it's not going to be applicable in all countries then create a mechanism to restrict it's use. Then release it to Production, when the people who've tested it understand what's happening and we can support it from a base of understanding and promote it to our communities.
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Re: New road type - Narrow Street

Postby iainhouse » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:39 pm

ApenGslowcuber wrote:narrow road is good for village and unpave road.

Not really. Proper classification of roads is good for villages, by providing higher-type alternatives if they exist.

As for unpaved roads, there is already something for them - the unpaved road checkbox!
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Re: New road type alley

Postby jchiarav » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:25 pm

Hi. If I have a pick up, I would not want waze to send me through these narrow streets. You should be able to choose to avoid them, like the unpaved ones. Think of the users who do not know the streets that waze sends you.
Regards.

PD: Sorry my english.
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Argentina

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Re: New road type alley

Postby jm6087 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:20 pm

I want to add my disappointment in adding this feature to production. I can already anticipate an abundance of alley's being mapped (the US version of an alley - roads behind houses to get to the garage) Now a new editor with no knowledge of editing will just go haywire adding them just because they are there.
Please remove from production quickly before it gets out of hand.

Thanks
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Re: New road type alley

Postby jm6087 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 pm

To throw into the mix:
If traffic from both directions is being rerouted because of penalties and the "alley" is a two-way segment that is only about one vehicle wide, then we will have vehicles coming from both directions and meeting in the middle with no where to go.

The name "alley" sounds like it is just a terminology issue that may have to worked through. I personally don't think of an alley as a normal road to drive (others apparently do). To me, it is the end of the route where the garage is located or where the trash trucks drive to pick up the trash. So for my interpretation and use, it is my opinion that they serve no purpose.
Other countries (or regions) have a different (and valid) opinion as well.

While I am disappointed that it was released to soon, my biggest issue is that countries that don't feel it is right for them should be able to get it removed from the list (and quickly). The countries that really like it can use it.
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Re: New road type - Narrow Street

Postby jm6087 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:34 pm

RussPA wrote:In PA, we have 125 streets retyped to Narrow Street/Passageway within the last few months from editors we don't know. Is there any way we can disable this so we don't have to keep fixing all of these?


I believe the Champs have asked but were told that it is a road type that can be used anywhere and they can't disable it for the US only.

I would like to suggest renaming it from Narrow Street/Passageway to "DO NOT USE IN US"
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Re: New road type - Narrow Street

Postby jm6087 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:07 pm

Gasparfox wrote:In Chile we have a similar problem, any editor (usually unknown) can freely place this type of street, and there are many ... Is it possible to restrict from a certain level of editing to add? For example only from the level 4 editor.


The US has asked the same question and was told that it could not be restricted in such a fashion. We had the name changed from Narrow Street to Passageway to deter the use of them.
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Re: New road type - Narrow Street

Postby jm6087 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:43 pm

world_fce9uvbd wrote:
delilush wrote:Mod edit - there's no need to quote the whole first post


Where is a guide about Narrow Street?


You should visit with your local leadership to see what the guidelines are for your country.
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Re: New road type alley

Postby johnsninja58 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:53 pm

Obviously this new road type is causing concern among the editing community. I know in the USA the response is NOT to use it at all. And while there are always many sides to consider I have some concerns about the implementation.

First and foremost is that these roads will be initially implemented with no penalty other than pruning. This means that the desired routing experience will significantly change at some point down the line and any presumed restrictions because of the name will not work. Further it was mentioned this isn’t even working in RBS so there is no value but confusion at this time with this being in production. This is a bad implementation strategy.

While I can understand the issues related to a need for more constricted streets in many parts of the world (this isn’t a common issue in the USA but I can think of a couple examples of less than desired roads), the issue of capacity is a great question that isn’t well addressed. This is a common issue already with Waze when too many people get routed an alternative route causing a bottle neck there. And while in theory historical speed data should buffer this a little I don’t think Waze handles this ideally and with a 5-10 minute penalty we can quickly cause havoc with these roads. Just today I was traveling in bumper to bumper traffic and was near a “alley” I did reflect that that would definitely be faster than this current mess but if everyone was routed down it and anyone decided to go the opposite direction it would be a parking lot instantaneously. The main issue is that there is more factors that would need more variables to account for how quickly a traffic state exists, ie capacity. I doubt that a road attribute would be able to preserve this type of data in whatever framework exists for the segments .

Editor level restriction also has come up in the utilization of this road type and while I can not speak to the framework that the system would allow the restriction of a specific road type (my initial guess is probably not natively supported) I feel we are having more and more conversations about restricting features or abilities based on an inadequate rank structure and while I recognize that is a completely different topic with new features I hope that there are discussions occurring about a more robust system of how we can restrict and enable an editor outside of solely rank.

I do agree that the name is problematic and that hopefully with regional adjustments that can be corrected. However this still requires you to set the correct language type. While I can not speak for what the USA global champs have discussed regarding this I can say that as a USA editor I have been instructed to explicitly NOT use this road type and that this may need to be a server level warning if our editing friends to the north agreed. But if I’m using a different language will I see a different name?

My only proposal is if the powers at be see that this road type should remain in production that it be treated with a significant penalty to prevent any unintended consequences as this feature is tested and implemented and as things get sorted out the penalty can be relaxed. I’m not excited to see a not properly functioning road type being implemented in production as many people have said there is a large body of the editing community that doesn’t read the forums and not connected to the community via other communication platforms that will get the wrong idea and experience by this road type that is clearly evolving. We must always ensure that features have a certain level of implied functionality based off the WME experience unless we are going to change how the editors gain access to wme to start.
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