Roundabout flags disapearing

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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:42 pm

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:There is a roundabout I looked at before replying in WME. At certain zoom levels you can see it.


didn't understand this sorry :(
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:29 am

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:If you zoom in and out sometimes you can see the center node


it was hard to find out that roundabout, but yes I can also see the small center blue cross ableit there is nothing I can do with it. But I can't see anything like that on the intl server.

PS: there is a weird segment on the right side, and a lot of soft turns

Screen Shot 2012-10-30 at 12.35.18 AM copy.jpg
Screen Shot 2012-10-30 at 12.35.18 AM copy.jpg (53.17 KiB) Viewed 135 times
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:53 am

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:Thanks. Odd that there are soft turns when that is not a basemapped roundabout.


If one creates the roundabout without manually qw'ing each node, it will be soft-turn by default.


Then there's the case I'm mentioning, where I do get the soft and u-turns and inverted directions after some months, even with the locks. ;)


And don't forget the street below the primary at the right side!
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:32 am

crazycomputingdotnet wrote:Yup, first thing I got. My sloppy editing in old I suppose.

I wonder if it is related to an issue we stumbled upon where roads were changing direction. There is a 2 mile segment near my house that I am the only one I drive on, and I only drive on it one way. I made it a 2 way way back in march, and it has since changed to a one way, switched it back and same. This happened three times. I have gone ahead and killed the entire stretch and rebuilt it, and am testing to see if it does it again. So far it hasn't, however every few days or so when I drive on it I get the pac man.


Getting the pacman back I think it's ok, the pacman will be there until there's enough people passing by. We have a segment where even with three different guys it always reverts back to pacman as nobody else probably passes by and as it's a tight road (parallel parking both sides) the average is low.

But if you manually change from one-way to two-way the system should *never* switch it back to one-way. If it were one-way and people would drive mostly the other way, it would be ok to switch to two ways or even to the opposite way, but two-way back to one-way seems to be wrong, and fortunately never saw that happening on "my roads".

From what I'm seeing on two-segment-parallel freeways with one-way each way and locked and still with average speed values for forward and reverse, maybe it could be the same case for you: do you have any parallel street to that one that cars could pass on the opposite direction, and more often than you, and then the backend would decide between one guy one way and a lot of guys the other way and reverse it?

I'd suggest making it two-way, enabling all relevant turns at the edges, and locking it out. Not that it's helping on my roundabouts, but worth the try.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:44 pm

davipt wrote:Continuing on this subject, I really think I'm doing something quite wrong (...)

(...)I'm now discovering a lot other roundabouts that kind of have the directions inverted. What I mean is that when one creates a new roundabout, the edit pane shows "one way ->" and "level 0". The roundabouts in question are still showing the arrows correctly, counter-clockwise, but the edit pane shows nothing, and if I manually select the "one way ->", some of the segments become clockwise.


Damn damn damn it was really my fault and is something probably documented somewhere.

It basically goes like this:
- create two separate segments, connected to each other, like A----BA----B
- select both and click on bridge
- if you picked the left one first and then the right one, you'll get A------B
- if you picked the right one first and then the left one, you'll get B------A <-- the inverted ones!

So what happened on the roundabouts is that I'd be picking the front segment first, then the previous one, and then bridge them, and get the new segment inverted. This way, because if I'd pick the previous segment first, the green arrow would be covering the next segment.

Gotta be more careful with this.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:15 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Why are you bridging segments of a roundabout?


Either the basemap or some newbie users are creating the roundabouts with the Y/triangle split at enter/exit, and these are just creating problems because unless they are locked, one of those segments will eventually turn two-way and then the instructions will become "keep right and then at the roundabout something", or will tell to exit at the wrong exit number.

So I delete the two Y segments connected to the roundabout, then join together the three segments of the roundabout, then reconnect the main segment to the right point in the middle of the roundabout.

Issue one was bridging those segments at the wrong order and no longer getting the whole roundabout A-->B. But that may not be a problem for the routing, just ugly.

The second issue is that the bridging increases the level, and it may happen that a roundabout with different levels per segment may confuse the routing and give wrong instructions.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:51 am

daknife wrote:Draw in the connecting roads first and then make the roundabout. (...)

The prime example of this is the Fonte Luminosa Rotary


Yes at this point in time and with all the question I have and all the attempts and the delay to get the update to test the possibilities, it has been easier and safer to just delete the whole roundabout and all the Y segments, connect the roads as aligned as possible, and redraw the roundabout. I always do that when they are perpendicular 4 street crosses, as that way I'll then get the "straight ahead/turn left/turn right" instructions instead of "take the 1st/2nd/3rd".

Now this roundabout is a good example of how one learns and tries different things over almost a year. As far as I've understood the sistem, waze does moves segments and nodes around based on the gps tracks. This means that roundabouts will move away from the center of the circle on the satellite, and in certain cases where GPS coverage is less good, will even become slightly oval or completely dead like the first link I sent. And when this happens, the dozens of nodes of the original roundabout becomes much less, like you can see on this one. It was created round, then after some time it was completely fupped up like this but not round, we moved the nodes back to the circle, and that was around the time I learned that roundabouts *SHALL* always be locked, so it stayed like this for some months now thanks to the lock.

As I don't want to redo every single roundabout until I'm sure the redoing is worth the trouble and won't get screwed again, I'm concentrating only on the ones with the wrong instructions, or the ones with the Y segments. This one is working correctly, gives me the right nth exit instructions, and is better to get the nth instructions than the ahead/left/right (the roundabout is not plane, the NE side is higher than the SW, hence the water pound in the middle), so I'm not touching it - besides having double checked the latest stuff I've been worried about, namely ensuring the whole roundabout is A-->B and all with the same level and, just in case, q-w all nodes again.

In other words, it's not not being round that screws the roundabouts, that one I know for sure. It's being unlocked, that I also know for sure. It's the screwed after this that I'm curious about.
And because the less nodes the less traffic to the client, I don't really mind having a nthagon, it still looks round on the client.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:10 am

xteejx wrote:No need to bridge it, just select the extra nodes after you've cleaned the roundabout up, and press delete.
Best practice is to redraw from scratch though.


Oh, always learning. I knew about the node deletion, but thought it was exactly the same behavior as the bridge. Just tried now that deleting the node does NOT increase the level. GOOOOOOD to know.

(note: I guess I never cared much about the node deletion because it's the delete key, which on a mac is... well, on a laptop is fn-backspace, but in theory the key shouldn't exist, like the second mouse button ;) )

About redrawing, it's been a year where most of my time is redrawing roundabouts that gets screwed differently every mapdate. As the average update has been one month, when the map goes live and a wrong instruction is detected, it's a pain to try to understand what was changed weeks before, what went wrong, or just give up and redraw it again.

There are plenty of documentation, but most is scattered over the wiki and comments on the forums, so one has to learns from own and other's experience.
I've had to fix or redraw roundabouts every time I discovered a new thing, from how to bridge segments (having a empty node would screw the nth exit), then the U-turn bug that at the time was only visible on cartouche_old (I'm so great for the highlights script!), then the discovery that unlocked segments will drift into madness, then the discovery of soft-hard turns and reverse connectivity and the q-w procedure, and then most of the roundabouts have been stable for several months.

Except the ones that don't, like the first link.

That's why I'm trying yet again to understand what went wrong and try to redo only the ones that are really broken or in need of removing the Y stuff, and leaving the ones that "works", to see the result after the next update.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:40 am

Timbones wrote:Levels have no consequence on routing at all.


Are you sure? I've seen cases where levels would seem to enable or disable the instructions. Let me give you a concrete case:

Coming from SE to N was always giving me the "turn right" instruction. For months I've had fights with it, the segment types, the qw, the locks, the steep angle, nothing worked. Until for whatever reason I got the two highlighted segments with the same level. No idea if having both the same was the solution, or if having the right one different from the left one, but clearly before it was everything 0 except the one coming from the south which was at 1. Is it a coincidence? Probably, but I won't touch it again.

Then I have several cases where in a freeway there's like a Y, one or more lanes to the left and the remaining to the right and I want to ensure the "keep left" or "keep right" is said. If the right lane is a ramp and the left is a freeway, I only get the keep right (or turn or continue depending on the angles), but never the keep left, even if there is a very wide Y angle. Except in one case I can't remember where, but where levels are completely messed up. And then I have the opposite cases where I ensure the Y is the same segment type and should just work, but there are also cases (I can't remember at 1:35am) where it doesn't, but again in a freeway with bridges and tunnels the levels are all different. So after the next update I do want to double check these "split lane" cases and compare the live result with the angles, types and levels, and see if there is anything to it.

If not, then I go back to the place where stuff happens (or doesn't) and I have no idea why.

I'd really love to have a route simulator on the editor, enough to simulate a single instruction. One would pick two segments, click on a button and see what instruction will happen when going live. Also important to allow to pick two segments of a roundabout and check the nth exit or ahead/left/right.

I have other segments where every month I try to adjust the angle just a little bit and every month I get the wrong instruction. Right next to that one, there's a case of a Y, where ideally would give me a turn left or a keep right. The turn left is easy. The other one was a turn right last time, so I opened the angle as little as I could, and now I get nothing, so for this update I closed the angle again as little as possible and will wait to see what happens.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:07 am

what do you all mean "for a while"? with updates at one per month, does that mean what? 2? 3? 6 updates max? I do see the most recent roundabouts keeping stable and with all the nodes, being for the lock or the backend not touching it, but there are plenty of roundabouts I have surely edited, recreated or saw on the first months I joined a little bit more than one year ago that today I can see as, depending on the size and number of segments, pure pentagons hexagons or similar, and completely out of place.

So it would be good news if after this session of fixes the roundabouts will no longer destroy themselves, but even then we still have hundreds, if not thousands of roundabouts to fix :|
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