Roundabout flags disapearing

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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:51 am

daknife wrote:Draw in the connecting roads first and then make the roundabout. (...)

The prime example of this is the Fonte Luminosa Rotary


Yes at this point in time and with all the question I have and all the attempts and the delay to get the update to test the possibilities, it has been easier and safer to just delete the whole roundabout and all the Y segments, connect the roads as aligned as possible, and redraw the roundabout. I always do that when they are perpendicular 4 street crosses, as that way I'll then get the "straight ahead/turn left/turn right" instructions instead of "take the 1st/2nd/3rd".

Now this roundabout is a good example of how one learns and tries different things over almost a year. As far as I've understood the sistem, waze does moves segments and nodes around based on the gps tracks. This means that roundabouts will move away from the center of the circle on the satellite, and in certain cases where GPS coverage is less good, will even become slightly oval or completely dead like the first link I sent. And when this happens, the dozens of nodes of the original roundabout becomes much less, like you can see on this one. It was created round, then after some time it was completely fupped up like this but not round, we moved the nodes back to the circle, and that was around the time I learned that roundabouts *SHALL* always be locked, so it stayed like this for some months now thanks to the lock.

As I don't want to redo every single roundabout until I'm sure the redoing is worth the trouble and won't get screwed again, I'm concentrating only on the ones with the wrong instructions, or the ones with the Y segments. This one is working correctly, gives me the right nth exit instructions, and is better to get the nth instructions than the ahead/left/right (the roundabout is not plane, the NE side is higher than the SW, hence the water pound in the middle), so I'm not touching it - besides having double checked the latest stuff I've been worried about, namely ensuring the whole roundabout is A-->B and all with the same level and, just in case, q-w all nodes again.

In other words, it's not not being round that screws the roundabouts, that one I know for sure. It's being unlocked, that I also know for sure. It's the screwed after this that I'm curious about.
And because the less nodes the less traffic to the client, I don't really mind having a nthagon, it still looks round on the client.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:10 am

xteejx wrote:No need to bridge it, just select the extra nodes after you've cleaned the roundabout up, and press delete.
Best practice is to redraw from scratch though.


Oh, always learning. I knew about the node deletion, but thought it was exactly the same behavior as the bridge. Just tried now that deleting the node does NOT increase the level. GOOOOOOD to know.

(note: I guess I never cared much about the node deletion because it's the delete key, which on a mac is... well, on a laptop is fn-backspace, but in theory the key shouldn't exist, like the second mouse button ;) )

About redrawing, it's been a year where most of my time is redrawing roundabouts that gets screwed differently every mapdate. As the average update has been one month, when the map goes live and a wrong instruction is detected, it's a pain to try to understand what was changed weeks before, what went wrong, or just give up and redraw it again.

There are plenty of documentation, but most is scattered over the wiki and comments on the forums, so one has to learns from own and other's experience.
I've had to fix or redraw roundabouts every time I discovered a new thing, from how to bridge segments (having a empty node would screw the nth exit), then the U-turn bug that at the time was only visible on cartouche_old (I'm so great for the highlights script!), then the discovery that unlocked segments will drift into madness, then the discovery of soft-hard turns and reverse connectivity and the q-w procedure, and then most of the roundabouts have been stable for several months.

Except the ones that don't, like the first link.

That's why I'm trying yet again to understand what went wrong and try to redo only the ones that are really broken or in need of removing the Y stuff, and leaving the ones that "works", to see the result after the next update.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:40 am

Timbones wrote:Levels have no consequence on routing at all.


Are you sure? I've seen cases where levels would seem to enable or disable the instructions. Let me give you a concrete case:

Coming from SE to N was always giving me the "turn right" instruction. For months I've had fights with it, the segment types, the qw, the locks, the steep angle, nothing worked. Until for whatever reason I got the two highlighted segments with the same level. No idea if having both the same was the solution, or if having the right one different from the left one, but clearly before it was everything 0 except the one coming from the south which was at 1. Is it a coincidence? Probably, but I won't touch it again.

Then I have several cases where in a freeway there's like a Y, one or more lanes to the left and the remaining to the right and I want to ensure the "keep left" or "keep right" is said. If the right lane is a ramp and the left is a freeway, I only get the keep right (or turn or continue depending on the angles), but never the keep left, even if there is a very wide Y angle. Except in one case I can't remember where, but where levels are completely messed up. And then I have the opposite cases where I ensure the Y is the same segment type and should just work, but there are also cases (I can't remember at 1:35am) where it doesn't, but again in a freeway with bridges and tunnels the levels are all different. So after the next update I do want to double check these "split lane" cases and compare the live result with the angles, types and levels, and see if there is anything to it.

If not, then I go back to the place where stuff happens (or doesn't) and I have no idea why.

I'd really love to have a route simulator on the editor, enough to simulate a single instruction. One would pick two segments, click on a button and see what instruction will happen when going live. Also important to allow to pick two segments of a roundabout and check the nth exit or ahead/left/right.

I have other segments where every month I try to adjust the angle just a little bit and every month I get the wrong instruction. Right next to that one, there's a case of a Y, where ideally would give me a turn left or a keep right. The turn left is easy. The other one was a turn right last time, so I opened the angle as little as I could, and now I get nothing, so for this update I closed the angle again as little as possible and will wait to see what happens.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby davipt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:07 am

what do you all mean "for a while"? with updates at one per month, does that mean what? 2? 3? 6 updates max? I do see the most recent roundabouts keeping stable and with all the nodes, being for the lock or the backend not touching it, but there are plenty of roundabouts I have surely edited, recreated or saw on the first months I joined a little bit more than one year ago that today I can see as, depending on the size and number of segments, pure pentagons hexagons or similar, and completely out of place.

So it would be good news if after this session of fixes the roundabouts will no longer destroy themselves, but even then we still have hundreds, if not thousands of roundabouts to fix :|
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby floppyrod84 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:26 am

No need to bridge it, just select the extra nodes after you've cleaned the roundabout up, and press delete.
Best practice is to redraw from scratch though.

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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby floppyrod84 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:30 am

Auto adjust is dead and buried. Has been for a while.

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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby floppyrod84 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:25 am

A while... At least a year. It must be. And auto adjust, I'm talking about geometry changes, it still updates road directions etc.

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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby jasonh300 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:22 am

davipt wrote:Now this roundabout is a good example of how one learns and tries different things over almost a year. As far as I've understood the sistem, waze does moves segments and nodes around based on the gps tracks. This means that roundabouts will move away from the center of the circle on the satellite, and in certain cases where GPS coverage is less good, will even become slightly oval or completely dead like the first link I sent. And when this happens, the dozens of nodes of the original roundabout becomes much less, like you can see on this one.


I've never seen any evidence that Waze moves segments or junctions outside of a roundabout, but I've seen exactly what you're talking about and wondered about it. Has anyone else seen roundabouts conform to the GPS tracks?
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby jondrush » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:52 am

Conversely, is there a way to force roundabouts to no longer be roundabouts? Sometimes the fastest way to draw a roughly circular or oval road would be to start with a roundabout. But I don't want to screw up the TTS.
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Re: Roundabout flags disapearing

Postby RodNav » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:12 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Pretty sure Waze rarely, if ever anymore, will do geometry adjustments based on drives. That made sense long ago when there were not very many editors, but today there are enough editors that that type of process is no longer necessary.

I seem to remember that, at the time when waze changed the meaning of 'Lock', that it was also stated that the auto-adjusting of segments was being removed. I haven't done a forum search yet to confirm that.
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