Un-named segments for better navigation

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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:59 am

vickimachado wrote:
Nacron wrote:What will show if there's a map report on the unnamed segment? Police reported on unnamed road?


I think that is an issue.

It will, Nacron. And that is an issue.

As I ponder this more...even if the segment is named, as long as the next two segments are named differently from the parent, and there is an angle of 30 degrees or so (can't remember exactly), from the parent to each following ramp segment, then you should get proper TTS for both right and left.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby sketch » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:10 am

Timbones wrote:Freeway/Highway Split
When a freeway or highway splits in two, you often need Waze to give keep left/right instructions for both continuations. The Junction Style guide suggests using 'wayfinder segments'. An alternative approach we've been trialing in the UK is to use a blank segment before the split, and then naming the following segments as per the road name.

I cannot agree with the use of unnamed segments as a replacement for pathfinder segments in the United States, especially in light of kentsmith9's traffic concern.

Our M.O. for freeway junction naming in the United States is to follow the big green signs as closely as possible. Our interstate system pathfinder signs display a highway name and a control city, and using an unnamed segment beforehand strips the map of that.

Of course, I'm referring to the use in the case of pathfinders only. I support the other prescribed uses in the OP. The roundabout one seems especially wise.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby Machete808 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:16 am

Heck, just trying to do the right thing. Here is the area again. The unnamed segment (previously named "to E H3 Fwy / E H201 Fwy / Kaneohe / Honolulu") is highlighted:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=72785182

Here are the green signs at the fork:

freeway.png
(235.65 KiB) Downloaded 451 times


the E H-3 fork is now a freeway segment; the Honolulu-bound one on the right is still a ramp. Don't know if the different road types creates a problem.

If that much is OK, should the right fork be named "to E H201 Fwy Honolulu" and the one on the left be called "E H3 Fwy Kaneohe"?

Appreciate everyone's patience. I do try to read the wiki but don't always find it clear. And i really don't mean to be idly mucking around with freeways. Just trying to get the right prompts.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby CBenson » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:55 am

I think the different road types does cause the problem. Waze does not give a prompt for angle of deflection less than 45 degrees if the route continues on the best continuation. If one choice continues on the same road type and the other choice changes road type, then one that continues on the same road type should be the best continuation and will not receive a navigation instruction (assuming all the segment names are different).
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby ncc1701v » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:20 pm

sketch wrote:I cannot agree with the use of unnamed segments as a replacement for pathfinder segments in the United States, especially in light of kentsmith9's traffic concern.

I didn't understand that idea the first time around, and now that it seems to be becoming accepted dogma I would appreciate a clear explanation. Apparently I'm missing something.

Here's how I see it: The claim is that if there is a single common segment before a fork, that the common segment "knows" which succeeding segment's congestion to apply to route timing, while a segment before that last-common-one will not "know". First, segments don't know anything, only the client or route server (collectively "Waze") knows. Second, the only way Waze knows which fork's timing to apply is if a route has been computed for the particular vehicle. In that case Waze always knows which segment's time to take into consideration, regardless of where the vehicle is on the path and regardless of how many segments there are in the path. So this business of (1) segments knowing anything and (2) Waze knowing which way the vehicle is going to go in one case but not another, doesn't make sense to me. Please advise.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:33 pm

I thought we already came up with a solution to this problem clearly detailed in Junction Style Guide - Freeway Splits. I believe this method was completely tested and worked great for this situation. It covered routing, TTS, visual map appearance, and no traffic tracking issues.

What in this setup is not covered in that section?

ncc1701v wrote:segments don't know anything, only the client or route server (collectively "Waze") knows.

I believe AlanOfTheBerg told me from a prior conversation with Waze that the database tracks the average transit times from segment to segment so it can be applied to routing decisions. The problem with a short segment just before the Y-split is only the short segment will have two different average speeds exiting that segment. So when the traffic backs up longer than the short segment, the next segment with only one exit (to the short segment) will only have a single average speed from the two segments beyond it's reach. So yes the routing server knows where the next car is going, but it only has one average speed from the segment before the short one.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby sketch » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:50 pm

vickimachado wrote:Heck, just trying to do the right thing. Here is the area again. The unnamed segment (previously named "to E H3 Fwy / E H201 Fwy / Kaneohe / Honolulu") is highlighted:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... s=72785182

Here are the green signs at the fork:

freeway.png


the E H-3 fork is now a freeway segment; the Honolulu-bound one on the right is still a ramp. Don't know if the different road types creates a problem.

If that much is OK, should the right fork be named "to E H201 Fwy Honolulu" and the one on the left be called "E H3 Fwy Kaneohe"?

Appreciate everyone's patience. I do try to read the wiki but don't always find it clear. And i really don't mean to be idly mucking around with freeways. Just trying to get the right prompts.

The highlighted segment is unnamed and Ramp type, which is correct.

The first two segments of the left fork should be joined and set to Ramp type as well. The segment should be named "to E H3 Fwy / Kaneohe". [edited]

When you're given a choice between two ramps that are of relatively equal value, both types must be set to Ramp for proper instruction.

I would also add a slight jog to give the right fork about a 20º departure angle from the previous ramp, just to be safe.

Both segments are correctly named now (i.e., starting with "to"). The rules for wayfinder segments do not apply here—wayfinders only happen when one freeway segment connects to another.
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby ncc1701v » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:53 pm

sketch wrote:The highlighted segment is unnamed and Ramp type, which is correct.

This segment should be Ramp type as well: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=68651525

Where would you actually start E H3? After all of the ramp mergers are done?
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby sketch » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:58 pm

ncc1701v wrote:Where would you actually start E H3? After all of the ramp mergers are done?

I would start E H3 at the point where the first and second ramps merge.

Logically, since the split is defined into two ramps for the sake of routing (because it appears as two ramps to the driver), the ramp on the left might as well stay a ramp until the end of the segment, for simplicity.

In that case, when two ramps converge from different directions, the freeway begins, like here: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=3&lat ... s=62997868
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Re: Un-named segments for better navigation

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:19 pm

For this particular area I agree with the proposal to simply make that part of the freeway (the two noted segments) a ramp. That will not have the problem of routing I mentioned earlier, e.g., there is no short unnamed segment inserted before the "Y". Yes there is a segment that is unnamed before the "Y", but that is the actual roadway and nothing special should be necessary. Because that segment is as long as possible back to the merge of the two prior ramps, all is as good as you can get it.

There was a prior conversation to insert a short segment before a "Y" to try to control naming that induced me to post my concern for routing. This is not that same "Y".
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