How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby AndyPoms » Tue May 07, 2013 5:24 pm

adetia wrote:All in all, I think rather then belaboring the point over and over, someone (thats been around awhile) just needs to come up with a standard, and perhaps run a vote, if a consensus amongst the voters is reached, adopt it as policy and move on until something in the client facilitates a better system.

We're pretty close to a US Standard - we just need to review the last round of comments (I was handling this, but things at my real job got crazy, so it got delayed a bit). See viewtopic.php?f=129&t=38934 for more info.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby adetia » Tue May 07, 2013 4:13 pm

I think the idea of not entering a "landmark" for parking lots is good (though I have myself been guilty of this), unless it is a parking facility. Landmarking shopping centers helps you get your bearings, in my opinion, where as landmarking a single store adds to alot of clutter.

All in all, I think rather then belaboring the point over and over, someone (thats been around awhile) just needs to come up with a standard, and perhaps run a vote, if a consensus amongst the voters is reached, adopt it as policy and move on until something in the client facilitates a better system. These grey areas make for alot of redundant work and also end up in some people getting messages over conflicting information, and not knowing which way is proper. I know that I'm a much better editor now then I was a few months ago, and still have alot of room for improvement, but in the spirit of offering a solution, this would be my points for consideration:

1. Landmark parking structures, especially in places like urban areas where parking is an issue
2. Landmark shopping centers as the perimeter of the building.
3. No landmarks for single businesses - unless this is a gas station, or commonly used directional landmark, like, in Lethbridge, AB, we have a watertower that has been converted into a restaurant. It sticks up above the skyline and people often use it as a basis for directions. As this is subjective, use your best judgement.
4. For very large landmarks (think airport, disneyworld, etc), mark the area that a person would be driving to -- like, the terminal as opposed to the runway.
5. Landmark schools, parks as they can also provide a visual heads up of reduced speed zones.

One other random observation is that when I use "outsourced" data source results, like yelp, etc, from within waze, it almost never routes me to the proper place - it simply takes me to the "center" of the street where the business is located -- this may be a problem specific to my portion of Canada, I don't know.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby PhantomSoul » Mon May 06, 2013 4:31 pm

I think a large part of the problem is that many of us who have been around for at least long enough to bring our areas out of "the dark ages" - where many roads less than state highways were just classified as neighborhood streets by the TIGER import - lock those roads in our wake to prevent people from further changing them. I'm not saying this is bad, but it does force newer editors to look for increasingly obscure things to update, many of which we probably haven't even begun to consider a US standard for.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby gettingthere » Mon May 06, 2013 4:12 pm

The other concern here is why do we as editors need to deal with every parking lot world-wide? Why can't Waze come up with something:

* If not mapped, assume it's a parking lot, suppress missing road map problems, suppress road speed contribution and traffic jams (yes, this may not work in countries without mature maps)
* Create some better logic to direct the Wazer to the hilighted route when they are not on a mapped road

We as editors are constantly fighting over these parking lot issues with no good solutions.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby gettingthere » Mon May 06, 2013 4:02 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:Not to mention parking lots with parking lot roads inside them (doesn't that cause some kind of interference with the routing system?).


Landmarks do not affect routing. Parking Lot and Gas Station landmarks do suppress automatic map problems such as 'missing road'.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby gettingthere » Mon May 06, 2013 4:00 pm

AndyPoms wrote:
skapur1 wrote:1. People are confusing POIs with landmarks. Since Waze does not allow editors to add POIs but allows editors to add landmarks, editors add landmarks when they really want to add POIs. In theory, POIs are searchable whereas landmarks are viewable. They are very similar and related concepts.
EXACTLY!!!!


Well I don't necessarily blame the new editors. This is Waze's fault for not addressing this issue. In fact, in most countries the gas station location updating is via the landmark layer further confusing this.

Also, it is likely that Waze will be asking us to add POI's in the future just as they are doing with house numbers. I feel that Waze has realized that if they ever want to sell the company they are going to need to have their own data vs. relying on lookups via 3rd parties.

Waze needs to add a valid POI layer with required information:

* Company Name
* Address
* Phone number
* Business Hours
* Website URL
* Etc.

Note: I have been very against Waze maintaining their own POI layer in the past since they are integrated with many providers with good data. But I suspect that this will change as Waze will want to have their own data.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby AndyPoms » Sun May 05, 2013 11:51 am

skapur1 wrote:1. People are confusing POIs with landmarks. Since Waze does not allow editors to add POIs but allows editors to add landmarks, editors add landmarks when they really want to add POIs. In theory, POIs are searchable whereas landmarks are viewable. They are very similar and related concepts.
EXACTLY!!!!
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby skapur1 » Sat May 04, 2013 9:55 pm

There are several issues in play here:
1. People are confusing POIs with landmarks. Since Waze does not allow editors to add POIs but allows editors to add landmarks, editors add landmarks when they really want to add POIs. In theory, POIs are searchable whereas landmarks are viewable. They are very similar and related concepts.
2. Landmark is literally a "Mark" on "Land". It is an aid to navigation. It is also useful if someone while driving gets curious and want wants to know "what is that?" like what is the name of that body of water that I am driving over. Landmarks loose their utility in waze when there is a huge billboard advertising the existence of a business at that location (e.g. department store sign) but see below.
3. Landmarks and street names serve the same purpose. They help you know you are in the correct location. You can compare a street name on Waze with a physical street sign on a real street just as you can compare a 7-11 landmark with a real 7-11 store. They are equally useful especially when your relative or friend gives you instructions like "make a right one street after the 7-11 to get to my house" rather than giving you street names.
4. Newer editors see online maps like Google Maps and Bing Maps full of landmarks and see that they are not there in Waze and want to fix what they perceive as a serious shortcoming in Waze data.
5. The landmark adders are all newer editors and the landmark removers are all editors who have been on Waze for quite some time. The editors who have been on Waze for a long time do not like the editing habits of the newbies. The older editors have slogged through map building which early on was mainly roads and they want the newbies to concentrate on roads whereas the newbies want to do other things like add landmarks. However all the roads have been added and the newer editors do not see the point in concentrating on roads when there is so much more that can be done to improve the map. This is the "war" referred to in an earlier post.

So what do you all think?
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby PhantomSoul » Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm

I totally agree that more information is better, and we should instead focus on how to regulate its presentation so that it is manageable.

That being said, I'm not sure the landmark layer on the WME is the best approach for this. To me, landmarks, by definition, are sparsely scattered, highly identifiable objects, from a distance, by which you would orient yourself. As such, the more things in a given area that we landmark, the less useful each of those landmarks becomes.

Central New Jersey is hyper-landmarked to the point of being out of control, and there is a total war going on about what should and shouldn't be landmarked. Excessive landmarks are deleted, only to be re-added by someone else who disagrees with that assessment. Retention ponds. Random unnamed copses of trees. Random farm fields. Not to mention parking lots with parking lot roads inside them (doesn't that cause some kind of interference with the routing system?).

I mean, it's great that we want to refine the presentation of things we see along the road despite having unmanageable amounts of information, but let's face it, that's not here and now, and it's making quite a mess out of the maps.
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Re: How to label very small stores like 7-11 + parking Lot

Postby gettingthere » Fri May 03, 2013 5:57 pm

My vote for no parking lot roads nor parking lot landmarks until Waze comes up with a better system that:

* Routes correctly
* Looks good in the client
* Isn't a royal waste of time having to map Parking lots on every square inch of the world
* Is agreed upon the standards for mapping in the editor

Right now there is a war going on:

* Add parking lot roads
* Delete parking lot roads
* Add parking lot landmarks
* Delete parking lot landmarks

All map editors are wasting their time with nearly zero value added to the map.

So my opinion to the original post - don't do anything to the 7-11 lot.
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