Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instructions

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Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instructions

Postby berestovskyy » Fri May 17, 2013 7:59 am

Hi!
I'd like to ask about normal roundabouts.

1. What is the background of having just 4 nodes limit? For instance, two split roads cross at the roundabout. There are 4 "on" segments and 4 "off", but this roundabout is non-normal for Waze.

2. Why getting left/right/straight instructions is so complicated (X-Y axis etc)? Having those angle-showing scripts now, It seems much easier just to analyze an angle between in and out segment with narrowed down spread to say 5 degree. So it's 1) easy to adjust an instruction 2) it will allow to get left/right/straight instructions on roundabouts like I mentioned above and on more complicated roundabouts like this one.

I'm not suggesting, just asking! ;)

Thanks!
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri May 17, 2013 7:15 pm

berestovskyy wrote: 1. What is the background of having just 4 nodes limit? For instance, two split roads cross at the roundabout. There are 4 "on" segments and 4 "off", but this roundabout is non-normal for Waze.

That is not a roundabout. It's just normal segments.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby berestovskyy » Sat May 18, 2013 6:47 am

In real life it is a roundabout (Gogle street view), marked with "Give way" and "Roundabout" signs.

Here is another example with proper roundabout segments if you wish. Despite I was trying hard to put those nodes on the right positions, I still get "take 3rd exit" instead of "on the roundabout take left". It's OK with me, but it bugs most of our AMs, so they prefer to have normal segments over roundabouts as my previous examples.

Sorry, I see you discuss such questions in Wiki Updates and Discussion. Missed again :(
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Sun May 19, 2013 12:04 am

In the first example, you don't get any "roundabout" prompts because it isn't set up as a roundabout. You'll never get "at the roundabout" unless there is actually a roundabout mapped.

In the latest example you gave, I'm not sure why you aren't getting a left/right prompt as those angles are quite close to 90 degrees. Unless the "angle" is calculated from the segment end-points. We haven't been given that level of detail. Here's how your angles look for segment end-to-end angles.

Screen Shot 2013-05-18 at 4.57.56 PM.png
Screen Shot 2013-05-18 at 4.57.56 PM.png (268.77 KiB) Viewed 863 times


The straight I'd say should still say "straight" but the left/right may be too far off the expected angle.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby davipt » Sun May 19, 2013 12:10 am



As Alan said, those are not even roundabouts, they were not created with the "add roundabout" feature, so they are normal segments with normal instructions.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby davipt » Sun May 19, 2013 12:21 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:In the latest example you gave, I'm not sure why you aren't getting a left/right prompt as those angles are quite close to 90 degrees. Unless the "angle" is calculated from the segment end-points. We haven't been given that level of detail. Here's how your angles look for segment end-to-end angles.


The left/right/straight only works with 2 to 4 segments attached - and please note I used "segments", not "nodes", because as soon as you connect two segments to the same node of the roundabout, all hell breaks loose.

It's worthless to try to align 90º when 5 or more segments are attached. It will always say "take the nth".

Now on your 3rd example, you have two choices - either risk the exit/entry distance and ensure a straight/left/right well behaved roundabout, or not risk and keep the segments on the right GPS tracks. In other words, this roundabout is too dangerous to force a 4 way, as the entries and exist are really too far away.

If you really want to get the keep left, it's quite simple, just kill those Y splits near the roundabout and connect the 4 two-way segments into the middle, align at 90º and create the roundabout.

What I personally do is: if there are 2 to 4 segments, and the instructions are quite clear, I kill as much as possible any unsplited segment (two segments each one-way) nearby and surely always any Y nearby the roundabout, possibly faking the entry/exit point a little to ensure the 90º.

If the roundabout has 3 segments in 120º, or 5 or more, then I respect the GPS lines, still kill any irrelevant Y, but keep the Y in cases so far away like yours so the roundabout design is recognizable from the map.

I think it's more important to see on the map that for example the line coming from southeast to northweast is almost straight than having the keep straight instruction.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby iainhouse » Sun May 19, 2013 12:46 am

^ What he said! Lost my network connection whilst trying to say that.

I still wanted to add that there is a very useful Roundabout Angle Script (which I just realised is also thanks to davipt).

If you have to deal with roundabouts frequently, it's a great tool for checking whether you'll get the turn left/turn right/straight across.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby davipt » Sun May 19, 2013 9:56 am

iainhouse wrote:^ What he said! Lost my network connection whilst trying to say that.

I still wanted to add that there is a very useful Roundabout Angle Script (which I just realised is also thanks to davipt).

If you have to deal with roundabouts frequently, it's a great tool for checking whether you'll get the turn left/turn right/straight across.


Honestly I haven't been using my own script functionality for a while. I've been using http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/160864 which gives me the angles of the segments around a node, to get the right angle for instructions like none, keep or take, and then because it's there, also use if for the roundabouts, as I've given up trying to fix them and just redo it from scratch any time there is any issue. Connecting the segments in the middle, the script gives me the angles. Another great functionality which I haven't yet understood which script does it (maybe the jNF) is the option "Redo Roundabout", which is great to identify and redo potential broken ones. One just needs to be careful with the directions of the segments around (the script may change some to two way), and after redoing it, ensure the level and locking is correct.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby berestovskyy » Mon May 20, 2013 8:46 am

Thanks for the answers. Getting back to my OP: can we ask Waze to remove 4 nodes limitation or to count one-way segments separately, so split-road roundabouts would become "normal" to Waze?

And more controversial: can we ask Waze to determine straight/left/right on a roundabout by just analyzing the angle between in and out setments? We already have few scripts showing the angles between segments, so it would be much easier for the editors to create a normal roundabout in WME just adjusting in/out segments angles, rather than build X-Y axis.
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Re: Normal Roundabouts and Take Left/Right/Straight Instruct

Postby davipt » Mon May 20, 2013 10:24 am

berestovskyy wrote:Thanks for the answers. Getting back to my OP: can we ask Waze to remove 4 nodes limitation or to count one-way segments separately, so split-road roundabouts would become "normal" to Waze?


How would a route with more than 4 segments behave then? What would it say on the 5th and next exits? Please recall that only recently the segment will (they say) remain one-way if an editor touches it, but older segments (some say admin created and untouched, I doubt it) can still change to two ways, which is the reason I hate so much the Y on roundabouts as the two Y segments will become two-ways and the exit number will get screwed.

Besides on large roundabouts it's usually harder to keep track of left/right/straight than the exit number.

berestovskyy wrote:And more controversial: can we ask Waze to determine straight/left/right on a roundabout by just analyzing the angle between in and out setments? We already have few scripts showing the angles between segments, so it would be much easier for the editors to create a normal roundabout in WME just adjusting in/out segments angles, rather than build X-Y axis.


I thought about this, but then saw some of my cases where the instructions would be more dangerous than today, specially because it would then require me to lock the whole roundabout and the nearby segments to avoid people moving the segments around and screwing the instructions again.

As I said, in your case, either stick to the split entries and let the exit-nth work, or hack the system, have 4 segments in the middle of the tracks and ensure the straight/left/right. ;) K.I.S.S.
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