[Page Update] Junction Style Guide

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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:31 pm

PesachZ wrote:Even then it's a penalty not an absolute restriction, so in the right circumstances it may still be used.

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I will say for the record that a lot of things we thought to be "absolute restrictions" are actually just very large penalties -- for instance, dirt roads, when set to avoid, have something of an hour penalty.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:32 am

BTW, I have been discussing my changes to the "Interchanges" subpage of the JSG in this forum topic, since the bulk of the initial info in JSG/Interchanges came from that page.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:19 pm

Images for the Wayfinder section are in progress. I've been a lot busier than I expected to be this summer.

For purposes of explanation, here's something from the MUTCD.

[ img ]

Same number of lanes exit as stay, so a wayfinder is called for.

Exit is on the right, and it's a freeway-freeway split, so ramp stubs are called for.

Left stub is named "I-50 W / LaSalle" because it's the continuation.

Right stub is named "Exit 55: I-79 N / Daly" because that's how exits are named.

In Waze it looks like this:

[ img ]

https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-90.21 ... 25&env=usa

BTW, the images and guidance in the MUTCD are explicitly in the public domain, so I may just use their images rather than try to find our own examples of everything, if possible.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:34 pm

CBenson wrote:
PesachZ wrote:what would you do

If only the final sign at split lacks the control city, but others approaching the exit include the control city, I go ahead and include the control city. Otherwise, I put a space after the cardinal direction ("I-50 W ") to make the name different. However, I can't find any I've done with the space that still exist on the map.

Another alternative is to use a short unnamed segment of freeway just before the split. But this should only be used when absolutely necessary.

Here's a few approaches I've taken:
  • Once, where a wayfinder sign on I-75 N included only I-75 shields and nothing else, I named the segment simply "I-75" because in fact that's all it said.
  • Similarly, a wayfinder sign on a local road (and state highway) called Elysian Fields Ave just says "Elysian Fields" on it, so I used "Elysian Fields" for the wayfinder name, because that is actually what's on the sign.
  • Alternatively, you could just add the control city anyway, if there is one. (The sign that used to just have an I-75 shield now has I-75 shields flanking the word "Detroit", so that made it easier.)
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:30 pm

The city name has no effect on navigation instructions. Neither does the alt name.

kentsmith9 wrote:3. (I personally never had a problem with "to" in the visual instructions. I am on a freeway and I come to a split. I want to know which way "to" continue with my current freeway. Seemed totally logical to me.)

The "to" you highlighted isn't the preposition we're trying to work with (actually, as part of an infinitive, it isn't a preposition at all) – rather, you want to know which way to continue "with" the current freeway.

To continue "with" the current freeway, a hypothetical valid command might be "stay with I-10 to the right". Also reasonable to say would be to continue "on" I-10, or to stay to the right "for" I-10.

And aren't we done with this argument? If some of us find it confusing, multiply that percentage by the number of users, and that many users might find it confusing. So go with the option that doesn't confuse anyone.
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Re: word "to" dropped from exit name

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:03 pm

dbraughlr wrote:
PesachZ wrote:The TTS engine (I can confirm at least for Samantha) suppresses the leading "to". The verbal instruction for a wayfinder segment named "to I-87" will be "Stay to the <right/left> at eye eighty seven". This instruction would still be correct, since it's not telling you to go to somewhere, you already are.


I don't consider it to be "correct". When entering I-80 Business W from I-5 S, the big green sign says "TO I-80 W". The TTS should announce what the sign says including the "to" because it is the exit onto I-80 Business W which is the second chance connector to I-80 W.

I think we should use "to" when that is what is on the sign and the "to" should not be suppressed.

The reason we use "to" on ramps is so that the ramps aren't selected when "select entire street" is used. If we didn't use it we could have big problems – like people accidentally changing the road type of a ramp when they only meant to change the type of the road.

I would like very much to be able to use just the text from the sign on ramps without the "to", but it can't be done for that reason. More trouble than it's worth. If we could get the editor changed to only "select entire street" for non-ramp types if a non-ramp is selected, or vice versa, then the change might be possible. I just don't know if it's worth it at this point.

There are ways to get around this most of the time. I have proposed changing the naming standard for unnumbered exits from "Exit to I-123 W / Anytown" to "Exit: I-123 W / Anytown" because it (1) is more similar to the numbered exit standard and (2) allows for differentiation between "Exit: I-80 W" and "Exit: to I-80 W". The disadvantage is that it sounds a bit awkward on TTS.

Also helpful in some situations is moving any "TO" information to the end of the string, so an unnumbered-exit BGS that says "TO US-61 / Cleary Ave" would be "Exit to Cleary Ave / to US-61".

Of course, both of those only work sometimes. It might be nice to have the all-caps "TO" be pronounced wherever.

In your particular case, you could solve it while staying accurate by naming the segment "I-80 BUS W / to I-80 W".
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:51 pm

I didn't mean to suggest we use a different preposition, just that "to" is not the right preposition. And the only reason "to" is there on ramps is (1) we need to stop the "select entire street" function from selecting ramps, and (2) "to" makes the most sense for ramps. Wayfinders aren't ramps, "to" doesn't make sense for wayfinders, and the entire reason "to" is present on ramps is not relevant for wayfinders, because wayfinders necessarily have a different name than the roads they intersect.

I would say the current list is as follows:

  1. Add a control city, if it is known.
  2. Remove the compass cardinal from the stub name.
  3. Add a space after the stub name.
  4. Create a freeway-type stub just before the junction with no street name.
These are more or less in order of preference as far as I'm personally concerned. Adding a space to the stub may be the most accurate solution but it is also harder to detect in the editor and will be flagged by Validator as an error, probably. The unnamed stub before the split forces an instruction because there's no "best continuation", but staff have expressed in the past that including a stub before a split can cause problems with average transition speed data.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:21 pm

I agree. Whether or not the lanes start just before the exit/split/ramp is highly relevant to the wayfinder judgment call. I have been thinking about that recently. Same thing where all the exit only lanes on the right only just started at the previous interchange, maybe less than a mile behind.

So the left exit should require at least one exit-only lane, and that the exit-only lane(s) started substantially before the exit point. The right exit should still require that at least as many lanes exit as continue, and should be qualified by saying that a wayfinder is not necessary if those exit-only lanes started at the immediately-previous interchange.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:45 am

I would prefer to set the minimum recommended angle at 10°, still easy enough to edit and in accordance with this section of the Interchanges page.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:56 am

I don't wanna be too rigid about it since many editors will be eyeballing that angle anyway. I don't know that it's worth editing everything on the map to accommodate the admittedly broken and ineffective closure tool.


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