[Page Update] Junction Style Guide

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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:18 pm

I will say, though, that "as a matter of course" is not universal regarding current use of the street type, as I've seen a number of these set to the "service road" type (which is of course wrong), and some set using the AGC rules (same as the road), which I think is excessive and unnecessary.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:11 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
CBenson wrote:It can be disconcerting to have the next instruction be for an exit a couple of states away and 10 hours away.

I have always agreed this is a problem. This is where the freaking "continue" instruction that ALL the other navigation systems provide has us beat. Such a simple instruction. Hopefully we can fix that with Junction Boxes! :mrgreen:

Not sure if I've lost the context, but the faraway instruction is "Continue straight for x hours to Exit 123..."


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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:42 pm

PesachZ wrote:
sketch wrote:
  1. Add a control city, if it is known.
  2. Remove the compass cardinal from the stub name.
  3. Add a space after the stub name.
  4. Create a freeway-type stub just before the junction with no street name.
While these have already been added to the wiki along with a note to use option #4 as a last resort only because it can prevent turn delay speed averages for routing, I discovered there be another good option as well.

You can make the segment after the split be no-name, even the lead in segment and the segment after the no-name stub share identical names and road types.

I tested an example with no alt names and it works fine (audio below), there is also a live working example with alt names in Connecticut. When seeing this up especially if it will be a long no-name segment instead of a stub, on a MH or Fwy, care should be taken with alt names to ensure working detour prevention.

TTS audio to the no-name Fwy stub

EDIT: Added PLs

I really don't know why I didn't think of this. In light of this information, I suggest we replace the entire list with this method. There's no need to fiddle around when we can get the right instruction with minimal "hacking".
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:04 pm

PesachZ wrote:I think we can document the order of preference should be to name the two wayfinder segments to:
1) Match the BGS provided it is different than the lead-in segment name (s-in)
2) Be no-name.

Although we still need to test what happens when both the lead in segment and the wayfinder segment are no-name.

True – if the lead-in segment and wayfinder segment are both no-name, there will be no instruction. So that can't work. That'd only be an issue in complex wayfinder situations, but it's definitely worth considering.

Hopefully, we should be able to use (1) most of the time, and in every Interstate example I've seen so far this has been adequate, I think. (1) should be the default, and shouldn't include too much qualifying information. (2) should be the alternative method only for the times that (1) doesn't work. For that reason, I don't think presenting it as a list is the best way to go, as it makes it look like there are options. I think it would work better in-text.
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[Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:54 am

PesachZ wrote:I agree that a stub will fix it, but only if the next segment after the stub is named. If it is needed to be unnamed, we will stool have the problem and an additional issue. Making it a no-name stub followed by a no-name segment might flag and be 'fixed' by any of several scripts. Without editors understanding the need for it, they might think it was unnecessary. Understanding the theory, and putting an alt name on the portion after the stub will prevent the node from being considered extra, and fix detour prevention.

The point of the stub is to get an unnamed segment in there. If the out segment is unnamed anyway, there's no need for an unnamed stub.

Detour prevention only operates to prevent "detours" of two segments or more.

I don't know that an alt name will prevent deletion of a node when both segments' properties are otherwise the same. Of course, this is easy to test.


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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:10 am

KB_Steveo wrote:And the drive through lots section, needs to be changed to say 3 segments. (maybe with a picture of that too.)

It depends on the drive-thru. Some have a single entrance and exit point, but most in my experience have one entrance and one exit, so the drive-thru is not a loop in itself, but creates a loop with the road it's on. Compare the westernmost of these three drive-thrus with the center and easternmost (ignoring any short internal segments and side-road connections for purposes of this argument).

In other words, look at these selected segments only. If those were the only mapped segments of each of these drive-thrus, the central and eastern ones would need only two segments each, whereas the western one would actually need four – three for the loop and one to connect the loop to the road.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:40 pm

https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Junction_Sty ... structions

This subpage recommends 22° as the angle for creating a "stay" or "exit" instruction – I don't agree with this, and it doesn't agree with the Interchanges subpage. My recommendation is to keep the angle around 10-15° – it allows for smoother transitions; also, we aren't trying to avoid the endpoints of the range, we're trying to avoid the transition point around 44°, so the shallower the better (within reason).

Also, I think the language "stick with" should be replaced with, maybe, "stay near" – no need to use doglegs on an 80° turn, for example.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:02 pm

qwaletee wrote:Or maybe we're just grinding on this too much.

Feel free to check on other topics if this one doesn't interest you. The JSG has been languishing for too long and I intend to get it right.
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:37 pm

qwaletee wrote:That's not what I meant. We sometimes get more specific than we need to. That doesn't mean the page is great as-is, there's definite room for improvment. But I'm uneasy with your specific guidance in this case.

What I'm trying to do is make the guidance less specific. It currently says, essentially, "stick to 22°", which I read as "make the angle exactly 22°", which is bad guidance. My intent is to loosen it up significantly; I mention the 10-15° interchange guidance because it's inconsistent and already in the wiki, not because I think that should be normalized for all "stay" instructions.

Rather, the guidance should be something like, "For intersections, keep it as close to the actual angle of the intersection as possible, keeping the resultant turn instruction in mind. Avoid angles between 35 and 55 degrees, as angles near the transition point can be harder to eyeball. For interchanges, follow the guidance in the JSG/Interchanges guide." (Thanks to PesachZ for suggesting some of the particulars here.)

The guidance to "stick to 90°" for turns is also too specific. We don't need doglegs on 75-80 degree turns. (The text is also erroneous: 90° is not the midpoint between 45° and 150°, nor is 45–150° the actual range where the "turn" instruction is given).
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Re: [Page Update] Junction Style Guide

Postby sketch » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:27 pm

Don't know how I missed that. Done.
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