Blocking u-turns

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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby phantomblack » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 pm

I guess I don't understand all the side effect issues mentioned. If the intersection is working then it shouldn't generate user requests automatic warnings is another thing. The routing shouldn't be random since there is only one way through the intersection depending on where you are coming from and going. I agree it can confuse future editors although unlike the bow tie it is well hidden and may not draw the attention.

Either way, I will listen to the advice given and not make anymore of these. I think I will leave this one as is and I had also made one near home. I can test them and see what happens should be interesting.

FYI, I did some routing with Google maps and it instructs incorrect U-turns all over E. Washington. It will feel like a real accomplishment to get this street working correctly and one up the "G".
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby gettingthere » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:19 pm

My opinion PhantomBlack, I don't like these stacked roads. Too difficult for future editors to understand what is going on here and too hard to work with the turn restrictions without moving the roads around.

'Mapcat Bowtie' approach is easier for other editors to understand when they come across it and routes well.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby bgodette » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:13 pm

PhantomBlack wrote:
bgodette wrote:A third solution, probably most error prone and confusing, is to used stacked two-way roads with appropriate turn restrictions. You have to temporarily modify their geometry enough to set turn restrictions correctly, but it does work.


I changed my intersection to this option I like the look over the bow tie. I tried to do like this at first but had problems getting the roads to stack. After reading your post I tried again and figured it out not to hard if you draw the second street out to give you a triangle while you adjust turn restrictions then up it's level and drop it over the original street.

Just had a look at what you did, and that's exactly what I was describing. I try to avoid doing that, but it does look clean and routes correctly.

There are a few side-effects to this method:
Automatic and manual reports will be ambiguous, and the warnings in the client may or may not appear depending on what route is being used.
Starting a route on such a setup will also be random as to which street the client snaps to.
There's two roads with independent historical data so there's the potential for odd routing results.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby RallyChris » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:23 pm

PhantomBlack wrote:To bad we don't have a place to leave editing notes so the next person to come along would know why it is this way. Then this type of work would be a lot less confusing.


Yeah, as overlapping roads like this might cause a map problem report in the future. And I don't know if it would even be obvious to me, that this was on purpose.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby phantomblack » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:09 pm

bgodette wrote:A third solution, probably most error prone and confusing, is to used stacked two-way roads with appropriate turn restrictions. You have to temporarily modify their geometry enough to set turn restrictions correctly, but it does work.


I changed my intersection to this option I like the look over the bow tie. I tried to do like this at first but had problems getting the roads to stack. After reading your post I tried again and figured it out not to hard if you draw the second street out to give you a triangle while you adjust turn restrictions then up it's level and drop it over the original street.

To bad we don't have a place to leave editing notes so the next person to come along would know why it is this way. Then this type of work would be a lot less confusing.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby bgodette » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:47 pm

AggieJM wrote:What is the easiest way to prohibit a "u-turn" at an intersection on a divided road?

This is the location in question:

https://www.waze.com/cartouche_old/?zoo ... FFFFFFTTTT

In this example, I could just block the turns on the small connecting road section. But if there were parking lot roads (or actual side streets) at that intersection, that would potentially block the allowed turns.

There's a few solutions:

The easiest is to create a Mapcat Bowtie, collapse everything to a single junction, disable all turns on the junction, then manually enable each allowed turn and fix up the geometry to look reasonably ok.

A second solution is to use dedicated turn lanes in combination with appropriate turn restrictions to prevent the u-turn, this works well with large medians and wide streets with actual dedicated turn lanes. For a full on dual-carriage to dual-carriage intersection you end up with a Crossed Box. This actually looks reasonably good on the client as there's no pinch as with the Bowtie and the intersection is just one blob.

A third solution, probably most error prone and confusing, is to used stacked two-way roads with appropriate turn restrictions. You have to temporarily modify their geometry enough to set turn restrictions correctly, but it does work.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby WeeeZer14 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Also search for "mapcat bowtie" :)
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby jasonh300 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:35 pm

PhantomBlack wrote:I have the same problem along one of our major streets all intersections are posted no U-turn but set up for Waze to use a double left. I tried adding a couple of one ways close together with a two way sandwiched in between so it looks like a single street. I don't know if it will work until I get a chance to drive it after a map update. This may be a the mapcat bow tie, I haven't seen one he has done.


I've seen something like this done where the roads are layered on top of each other and you can't see them.

There are some other examples that one of the editors set up in the desert in Arizona, but I can't find them at the moment.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby phantomblack » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:40 pm

I have the same problem along one of our major streets all intersections are posted no U-turn but set up for Waze to use a double left. I tried adding a couple of one ways close together with a two way sandwiched in between so it looks like a single street. I don't know if it will work until I get a chance to drive it after a map update. This may be a the mapcat bow tie, I haven't seen one he has done.

Take a look it may work for you or hopefully some pro's will chime in with better options.

https://www.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=10 ... FTFTFTTTTT

You can only see what I did if you zoom all the way in with the Papyrus editor Cartouche won't zoom far enough for me.

Edit: I also noticed a problem with the connecting street if you turn on connectivity you can see a right hand turn is allowed against the flow of traffic on Main St. same thing with Daily Dr. to the south. I believe this is from a bug and you should rebuild those streets.
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Re: Blocking u-turns

Postby RallyChris » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:58 pm

There are two kinds of U-Turns... one where there is only one two segment. This cannot be blocked as there is no method for doing so (and maybe no way to save it in the database, depending on how these are documented).

This one is the other kind, where you have two one way segments with a crossover. In it's current configuration you cannot make it denied, as you actually have two different turns, and it would appear that the crossover serves a purpose to get to business on the other side, so you can't restrict either of the turns in itself or you wouldn't be able to route to/from the business.

If the requested u-turn is persistent (not caused by some kind of map issue that the fix hasn't made it through processing yet), then you might use what is called a mapcat bowtie, it's a unique solution that uses several cross over roads to allow the restriction of turns like this. It technically doesn't look correct, but it is functional. Search the forum for topics on this.
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