I am also in the camp of editor who believe that more instructions at complex intersections is better than fewer. Drivers only get an instruction when there is not a BC (or when the route diverges from the BC), which may require some use of Wayfinders or other mild map-hacks. I've dealt with a similar situation as you describe at El Camino in the Deering neighborhood of Portland, Maine, at a messy 5-way interchange where following US-302 (the "main route") southward requires that the driver get into a left-hand turn lane.

I would really rather that we have an explicit mechanism to control messaging per route. JBs as currently implemented don't provide this granularity.

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Question is, do we have them work on this kind of feature prior to the junction box? The junction box would allow us to define these instructions.

This, basically. We have something for this that we know is coming (whenever it comes), it works well enough for now, and we all know how development moves here. I don't think there's any reason to believe or even ask for some kind of temporary alternate solution for something that already has an upcoming solution.

jondrush wrote:Because there are hundreds of thousands of basic intersections where continue straight is the correct command. We shouldn't need to add a junction box to get that command.

I can't think of any. Maybe a couple freeway entrances. Arguably any straight other-road --> ramp transition should get a "continue straight, at I-75 S" or whatever, but I don't know about anything other than that. Might be nice at the start of a long bridge.

Timbones wrote:For UK Motorways (Freeways) we have many instances where we'd like to have 'keep right' to stay on the current road (left-hand drive), and have resorted to complicated hacks to make it happen (as per Highway Splits in the Wiki). We'd like to be able to force this instruction without mucking about with short segments and the like.

Furthermore, we'd really like to have a 'soft instruction' which is read out by TTS (once), but not shown on the display or in the route list. This is so that the driver can see how far it is to the real exit from the Motorway, but still get the occasional nag to move out of the lane which could exit them prematurely. Optionally, these 'soft instructions' can be turned off completely for those that would prefer not to hear them.

If this is something that the Junction Box will provide, then that would be great...

I don't think audio-but-not-display, or vice versa, is a good idea for any instruction. Some rely on the TTS exclusively, some rely on the display exclusively, and some use both. Shouldn't make it useless for anyone who keeps their client muted (as I often do on highway trips, when listening to podcasts).

Barring that, we use the same hack as highway splits for the "hey, don't exit" scenario, only in extreme instances (where at least as many lanes exit as continue). "Stay to the left" is technically correct—stay in the left lanes, because the right lanes exit—but it'd probably be better to show "⬆︎ I-10 E / New Orleans" and say "Continue on I-10 East, New Orleans" when the road doesn't actually veer off to the left.

I agree that the junction box will be very good for this... at least hopefully.

^ Lane guidance is a different animal, and while also very helpful, also a lot harder to implement, I imagine.

jondrush wrote:Every single three-way intersection where the main road turns and the side road is straight on. That might not happen much in the Midwest, but there are literally hundreds of thousands in the east. We then need to hack the map to put a kink in the side road to get Waze to give anything resembling a correct instruction.

Okay, I see what you mean. Something like "if the road types don't match AND the names don't match, and the angle is less than 5º-10º, and there are no other roads within 45º, give a "continue straight" instruction.

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:

jondrush wrote:Continue straight, for the most part, doesn't need to be said at all. Four-way junction of four segments and one changes names. No need for it. The logic to determine when to say it isn't totally straightforward. (pun intended)

I've run into situations where perhaps "Continue straight" isn't necessary, but "Stay in the left lane to continue straight" or "only the 3rd lane continues straight" would be very useful.

Other GPS solutions that I use are much better at guiding to the correct lane(s) in complicated situations. Waze on the other hand can be very confusing, and even when the routing is correct you can end up taking the wrong exit, or being forced into a turn because Waze's instructions weren't clear enough.

There are certainly instances where this would be useful!

Especially when an intersection includes a highway on ramp. As at the intersection the next direction given is the exit off the highway I'm entering.

For UK Motorways (Freeways) we have many instances where we'd like to have 'keep right' to stay on the current road (left-hand drive), and have resorted to complicated hacks to make it happen (as per Highway Splits in the Wiki). We'd like to be able to force this instruction without mucking about with short segments and the like.

Furthermore, we'd really like to have a 'soft instruction' which is read out by TTS (once), but not shown on the display or in the route list. This is so that the driver can see how far it is to the real exit from the Motorway, but still get the occasional nag to move out of the lane which could exit them prematurely. Optionally, these 'soft instructions' can be turned off completely for those that would prefer not to hear them.

If this is something that the Junction Box will provide, then that would be great...

mapcat wrote:

Timbones wrote:Furthermore, we'd really like to have a 'soft instruction' which is read out by TTS (once), but not shown on the display...

This is exactly the solution I'd prefer. A simple instruction that doesn't unnecessarily lengthen the navigation list, and an option to turn it off.

Another idea would be to have the 'keep going' briefly popup on the screen a mile from the junction, perhaps with a 'bing' sound instead of full TTS. When further away, you'd only see next real exit.

It would certainly be useful to have a way to override the default nav instruction Waze guesses using the rules of BC.

Some of the "BC whispering" we do to get reasonable commands despite the BC rules are kind of silly, and are often "corrected" by other editors, resulting, sometimes, in no voice command being given when a turn instruction is needed.

Adjusting turn angles to > 45 or < 45 with micro-doglegs, adding nonsense alt. names to segments, adding "fake stub roads to nowhere" These are nice little mental challenges, but perhaps not the best approach to building a sensible map.

I have a couple of examples of where I think some sort of instruction is needed.
----------------------
• Example #1

The Alameda at El Camino Real

Ordinarily I would think an intersection like The Alameda at El Camino Real would not need an instruction. But this one has a twist.

Picture this scenario:

You're coming from the south on I-880 N with a destination somewhere on Lafayette St, and you have been instructed to exit The Alameda. When you're near the end of the ramp, Waze tells you:

• Turn left onto The Alameda.

After leaving the ramp, and you have been driving on The Alameda, Waze gives you your next instruction:

• In 1.2 miles, turn right onto Lafayette St.

So you drive along on The Alameda, expecting your next instruction to be something about Lafayette St. Now here's the twist.

After about a half of a mile, you reach an intersection where you see a green sign hanging below the arm of the traffic light with the street name "The Alameda" and a white arrow that is pointing perpendicularly to your left. The Alameda turns to the left at a traffic light. Waze did not give any sort of instruction.

You were last told to be on The Alameda. You were also told that the next road would be Lafayette St, and that it would be much further away from where you are now.

What should you do?

Here's the second example where some sort of instruction would be needed:
----------------------
• Example #2

Embarcadero Rd

Embarcadero Rd splits into two different roadways here: Part goes off to the right and ends into Alma St, part goes to the left and continues.

I have been told many times that we try to match the green signs.

There is a green sign on a lamp post just prior to this. The top half has an arrow pointing up and to the left with "Embarcadero Rd", the bottom has an arrow pointing up and to the right with "Alma St NORTH".

If you look closely, visibility is rather poor at that intersection. The main portion of Embarcadero not only curves to the left, it dips down and curves back to the right to pass beneath railroad tracks--all in the distance of about 200 feet. You cannot see this well from the intersection. Then add to that, Embarcadero is usually crowded with traffic of people who are continually jogging for the faster lane. Traffic moves rather quickly; the speed limit is 25 MPH, but the route speed script shows traffic speed is closer to 36.5 MPH. So drivers have very little opportunity to see which leg to take--left or right--then make a decision.

Waze gave "keep left" and "keep right" instructions here for nearly two years that I'm aware. But then one person complained rather outspokenly, so the map was changed to how you see it today.

I have been discussing Example #1 with kentsmith9. He suggested I bring these situations to an open forum so they can be discussed more widely across all states/countries.