stevethompson49 wrote:Agreed.

So, are we going to default to green u-turns now, except in places where they're obviously impossible or illegal?

No, this would be a waste of editor resources. It would hide any real issue that may be located where all the u-turns have been enabled. You loose any editor history of the segment and any issues that occur you now don't know the actual last edit date the segment had.

Adding speed limits did/does the same with respect to last real edit date.

The tests I have done, I have never had the app perform a u-turn to get back to the route I was currently driving.

I don't see any real benefit enabling them and all it would appear is you are trying to increase your edit count and points.

There are plenty of real things that need doing to the map than doing this.

In the U.S. - different states and regions have different ways of implementing them last I checked.

In general for me, I do not put U-Turns on street level streets unless there is a clear advantage for them.

I believe the routing issues with u-turns have been rectified. Thus they can be enabled where they are permissible. I wouldn't go out my way to enable every street in your suburb and surrounding suburbs, but I see no current reason that it cannot be done.

We map based on what is legal. It is the job of councils and governments to determine whether a turn is permitted or not based on risk assessments performed by people much more qualified than us to do so. This point is not up for discussion, never has been and never will be.

If anybody has concerns regarding the safety of a turn, it is not up to this community to prohibit it based on our opinion. Please write to your local council and state government roads department and ask them to investigate whether the turn should be prohibited. After pleading your case, they may decide to alter the lines or signage accordingly or to leave it as is.

stevethompson49 wrote:In my tests of enabling u-turns, it seems that Waze will only instruct a u-turn at the end of the segment, no matter how long the segment is. Waze will instruct the driver to do a u-turn in 2 kilometres for example, even though it's quite legal and safe to do so where they are. From my tests, it seems of limited value to make u-turns green until Waze sort this out.

I don't think this is a problem that Waze needs to sort out. If someone needs to do a U-turn, and the nearest one Waze knows about is 2km (or 20km) away but there is a safe and legal place to do it 200m away, then the driver should make the U-turn at the nearby legal one; the fact that Waze didn't realise/tell them they could U-turn sooner is not an issue.

Waze's job is to help us find a good way from A to B hopefully avoiding the traffic problems at C, not to do every piece of thinking and planning for us - otherwise we have no business controlling a motor vehicle.

There's also the problem of having to break up existing segments where a u-turn is legal and where it's not in various places in an existing segment. ... It also means that editors have to examine each road in much more detail than they do now, to decide where it's safe and legal and where it's not.

Trying to do that would make many roads split into ridiculous numbers of small segments, which would make the computations for any navigation so much longer and more complex that Waze would struggle to perform its core job of navigating.

stevethompson49 wrote:According to NSW law, it is legal to turn across an unbroken line to turn into or out of a street or any driveway.

This part is correct.

stevethompson49 wrote:If there is any break in the line, it is also legal to make a u-turn, other than at a traffic-light-controlled intersection.

This part is not quite correct. If the line closest to you is unbroken, then the U-turn is not legal. See near the bottom of Intersections and Turning - Road Rules - NSW RMS

That said, in terms of Moseley St/Baker St as previously linked, the U-turns currently on there all seem to be legal. I'd question how safe the ones at Sun Valley Place are, but I don't have real-life experience with that road to base comments on.

As long as you are not adding any new junction nodes to a segment then I don't see an issue enabling a U-turn where it is safe and legal to do so.

There's also the problem of having to break up existing segments where a u-turn is legal and where it's not in various places in an existing segment.

Just to be clear do not break up existing segments to enable U-turns unless there is a dedicated U-turn bay (on a highway for example).

I can't find a previous thread where this issue was discussed unfortunately however what I can say is Waze does not a have a policy in the wiki about this as far as I know.

Having said this I think it is reasonable to say that if an editor was going to start doing something which has not been done anywhere else in the map then starting a thread seeking feedback first would be appropriate. Marking all junction nodes on non-signaled intersections would fall into this category.

I would say that on Baker St I would not allow the U-turns as the double line suggests to me that someone has decided that the stretch of road is somehow hazardous (ie. suburban 50k roads dont normally get line marked) so doing a U-turn in the break of the lines (which I think is more to make the turn in and out of the side street legal not the U-turn) is not advisable. Waze would either go around the block to solve this problem (eg. Lastburn Cres) or do a U-turn at the end of Sun Valley Pl. Either way the driver could see that Waze wants them to turn around and can make their own mind up.

I don't have the same argument for Moseley St so probably is OK along there although I do note a U-turn had been allowed at a private road at the Pennant Hills Rd end and that is clearly in front of an unbroken double line so this should be removed.

So in summary, more discussion is required to see if we need/want a policy on this. Glomp might have some info on what is being down elsewhere in the world?

stevethompson49 wrote:It's not for Waze editors to prevent drivers from doing u-turns where they judge that it is legal and safe to do so.

Drivers can always do what they want, Waze doesn't prevent anything. The most important thing here is that users of Waze get a consistent experience across Australia and around the world. Hence the extensive wiki. So this is clearly a contentious issue and one that requires careful thought before there is any mass editing of the map.