[New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Moderator: USA Champs

Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:22 pm

Nagamasa wrote:I would refrain from calling it "controversial"--WoP is not a news article--just say if your state uses it or not.

Some significant parts of the country object to the proposed guidance. They consider the proposed practice a net negative due to driver safety concerns, among other things. But if the guidance winds up in the national wiki, it automatically implies an aura of general agreement. This marginalizes the concerns of those communities who have been forced explicitly to "opt out" of something they disagreed with in the first place.

When guidance is so controversial that certain regions refuse to accept it, I honestly don't believe it belongs in the national wiki at all. Personally, the only way I would be OK with it ending up there is if it comes with a big bright warning.

I appreciate that this will strike some readers as odd, and I don't like that either. But as far as I'm concerned the only alternative is the guidance not being in the national wiki.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:37 am

herrchin wrote:Landmarks help us identify places, roads, turns, and our own current position relative to the landmark. Interchange APs definitely contribute to that relationship, especially when the road design relative to the surrounding features doesn't necessarily create that at-a-glance identification of the interchange. "Petro is on the far side of the interchange" is more easily identified using an interchange AP than without.

Could you post a screenshot illustrating that effect?
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:15 pm

Thanks, I'd be interested to see any screenshot, really, that supports the case that a busy driver with only a second to glance at the screen would benefit from an Exit AP, while few if any drivers would need to accept cognitive & visual impairment in order to discern & digest what it says.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 am

Thanks for the examples. I do want to clarify something, I never characterized the Exit # AP proposal as "exceedingly dangerous". My perspective is, as I have said, that the proposed Exit APs are a "net negative" when the pluses and minuses are added up across the entire Wazing community. In other words, I believe the potential benefits to those who want and are able to take advantage of the feature while driving may be outweighed by the potential downsides to those who must risk impairment to do so.

My guiding principle is this: if we are discussing increasing the level of detail displayed to perhaps millions of drivers across the country, the burden of proof should be on the proponents to demonstrate a net positive result. By this principle, the argument that "most people won't notice, and a few will like it, so why not" isn't compelling. I believe this is a deeply conservative principle, not radical at all, so I am sorry and more than a bit puzzled that it has apparently come across as extreme.

In the screenshots, it's useful to see how in the first three the reduced level of detail in drive mode helps the exit numbers to stand out at least a bit more than in non-drive browsing mode, and thanks for that. To the point of demonstrating net positive -- can you help me understand how the Exit numbers in those specific examples helped you get where you were going in ways the other display cues did not?
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:11 pm

sketch wrote:It is also worth noting that the relative novelty of exit numbering to Californians may tend to skew a Californian's judgment one way or the other. Whereas any New Jerseyan can tell you which exit off which turnpike they live nearest. The rest of the country lives somewhere in the middle of that.

I can appreciate this perspective. I grew up in Hawaii where directions were always relative to the mountains (mauka) or the ocean (makai) and, in Honolulu, towards the airport (Ewa) or towards Kahala (Diamond Head). The (so-called) Interstate H1 had signs with E and W as a requirement of the federal money that funded them, but although I knew what they stood for (duh) they were still meaningless to me. When I moved to the mainland it was years (yes, years!) before I got used to thinking in terms of compass points. Yes, I have heard the "what exit?" joke when one Jersey person is meeting another for the first time :lol:

Well, I have been told that, at the present time, the Southwest Region is not going for this idea. So if this goes into the national wiki, there would have to be a big red-triangle warning at the top of the wiki page saying something like "Interstate Exit Area Places are not to be used in Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, New Mexico, Nevada, and Utah." The list could end up longer; I have no idea if other regions have made up their minds against it or not. Herrchin mentioned that this is all being discussed heavily in other places; maybe everyone has already decided what they want and this thread isn't really accomplishing much?

In any event I believe I've said my piece and will watch with interest where the idea goes from here.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:02 pm

Here's what I'm hearing:

1. Since there are already Area Place names floating on the display, then it should be OK to add more with no additional effect on cognitive or visual impairment. Either there's no impairment in the first place, or the impairment is already at maximum, either way there is zero downside to adding more detail.

2. Since nobody has complained about the potential for the names of even widely-disliked Area Places to cause impairment, therefore there is no impairment, thus there is zero downside to adding more detail.

With a world of respect for the authors, I'm afraid I don't follow the logic on either of those.

All I can say is that, in my own personal experience, I have caught glimpses of text on the Waze display out of the corner of my eye and wondered enough if they were meaningful to my drive that I looked more carefully even though it meant a certain level of impairment. I can't possibly be the only Wazer in the world to whom that could happen.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:46 am

sketch wrote:Your analysis seems to rely on the assumption that an ideal navigational map display would contain no text whatsoever.

I would appreciate it very much if you would stop constructing strawmen from my posts for the purpose of attacking them.

Of course I never said the ideal map display would have no text, just like I never said the proposed text was "exceedingly dangerous". Both of those things are silly and deserve rebuke; I don't believe either of them which is why I never said them. It is difficult to have this conversation when things keep getting put in my mouth that I didn't say.

Let me say this now as clearly as I possibly can: I recognize that there is potential value to some drivers in some regions in having an Exit Number displayed in some fashion. My point is not that the proposal has no value. It does have value. I am only concerned that the potential drawbacks may outweigh the potential benefits.

This is a tradeoff. A tradeoff is not a situation where one thing is good and another is bad. It is a situation where in order to get one good thing you have to give up another good thing. Here, we have the following tradeoff:

Good Thing #1: Increasing the amount of text on the display, showing additional information that may be interesting or helpful to somebody.

Good Thing #2: A spare display image that shows only things likely to be important to the majority of drivers, so that the typical driver can identify useful information as quickly as possible with the minimum of cognitive and visual impairment.

I am sure everyone on this forum believes, as I do, that both of these are Good Things. We are all on the same side in this.

What I am saying is simply that we cannot consider only Good Thing #1 without also considering its impact on Good Thing #2. When I consider the proposed Area Places, I find myself unwilling to give ground on Good Thing #2 in order to have more of Good Thing #1. Others may place less value on Good Thing #2 and more value on Good Thing #1. Regardless, we can hopefully all still agree that they are both Good Things.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby Happy_Lyn » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:13 am

Just catching up on this.

The exit numbers are great. Though, I agree with whoever said it would be nice to do this without having area places over the junctions. Alas, that is not likely to happen any time soon.
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[New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby HBiede » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:05 pm

Standard Proposal Seeking Opinions:

In some states, including my home state of Nebraska, interstate exits are marked as area places. While these are not used as destinations in navigations in all but the rarest of rare use cases, they provide users with a subtle but useful display of upcoming exits as well as a way to see approximately where they are relative to mile markers. While this is not as useful in more cramped urban areas, it is a nice addition in more rural expanses. Examples of the display in-app are attached below:

[ img ]

And while not as visible, it is still useful in smaller, urban areas as well (I don't have an in-app view here, so I fell back on a WME screenshot):

[ img ]

The standard used for these area places are:
Street: I-XX
Category: Junction/Intersection
Lock Level: Equal to the Attached Freeway Segment

I propose that this practice be expanded beyond a few select states to a more wide reaching availability for the sake of consistency from a UX perspective. Speaking from personal experience, I find them very useful and a nice addition to the map as a whole. I welcome dissenting opinions, other anecdotes in favor, and possible standards, minimum area sizes, etc.

Wazeopedia Entry Draft:
https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/USA/Us ... _Exit_Area

Previous Regional Discussions:
NWR - https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=565&t=275649
PLN - https://www.waze.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=567&t=275650

Examples of in place area places:
https://www.waze.com/en-US/editor?env=usa&lon=-98.26309&lat=40.82233&zoom=4&venues=171508120.1715343346.341378
https://www.waze.com/en-US/editor?env=usa&lon=-96.75563&lat=40.81750&zoom=4&venues=172491160.1725173746.341437
https://www.waze.com/en-US/editor?env=usa&lon=-96.71420&lat=40.86122&zoom=4&venues=172556697.1725435894.341462
Last edited by HBiede on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [New Page] Interstate Exit Area Place (IEAs)

Postby HBiede » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:42 pm

sketch wrote:As for the content, I think more detail is needed regarding the handling of suffixed exits and more urban situations. I've only seen N/S in New York; other states may do this, but at any rate, many use A/B when different ramps feed different directions, so the examples should more clearly state this with sample screenshots as well. Also, naming should follow signs in such situations. If there is a sign that says "Exit 13", then later signs say "Exit 13A" and "Exit 13B", then the Place should be "Exit 13". But if the first sign says "Exit 13B-A" (presumably "Exit 13A-B" coming the other way), the Place should be named "Exit 13A-B".

However, not all A/B exits are actually the same interchange, so the draft should also account for this with examples. The various exits 235 and 236 on I-10 in New Orleans are mostly separate from each other some kind of way, and these should have separate places, of course. It may seem intuitive, sure, but I guarantee someone will come on by and say "well the wiki says A-B-C exits should just be 'Exit 235'..."

Moving on, I am a little puzzled by this:
The street the exit terminates at should not be included in the name unless it alleviates confusion or no numbering system is in place (ie “Exit 449 - 72nd Street”).

I don't think there is really any occasion where this is appropriate. Your example shows an exit number, so a numbering system is in place. Either the exit is numbered or it isn't.


I have reviewed the wording. Have another look.
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