Get a sneak peek at whats next for Permanent Hazards on our April 7th Office Hours!
Post by PhantomSoul
I think one example that has been mentioned on and off - and this may allude to what voludu2 just mentioned - that there may be some cases where 2 different locations are distinguished - in the mailing address domain - only by their zip code, possibly even only by the 4-digit extension. That is, 2 locations, same house number, same street name - even if it's actually a different street - same city name, same state, and possibly even the same zip code with just the 4-digit extension being different.

If this is true, can we get some PL's here for examples? I feel like such occurrences, if they exist, would likely need to be solved on a case-by-case basis.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
The hamlets in Nassau and Suffolk that were brought in as primary city names (PCN's) by the basemap import (easy way to tell, if their boundaries are still locked) were likely CDP's, at least at the time the basemap import was executed.

A lot, if not most or all of the non-incorporated PCN's - with still-locked polygons - not just in New York, but in other states too - were CDP's at the time the basemap was imported or still are CDPs.

My bet is that these hamlets on Long Island that are already in Waze were either added recently manually by someone or they are/were CDPs.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
johnsninja58 wrote:Starting out West

Hamlet of Springs NY vs East Hampton NY

We had an issue with the address for this location, East Hampton Point, a while back.

Its in Springs NY part of East Hampton. The company lists their address in East Hampton however we have it mapped as Springs NY. Suffolk GIS also has the address as East Hampton. A fix for this location would need more guidance.
I would think the business's listed address would win out.

However, by doing so, the broader situation probably becomes even more complicated. Assuming that a city cannot be fragmented (i.e., multiple non-touching polygons), that means we have a continuity concern; how does that address "connect" to the rest of that city? We may have to interpolate that somehow; in commercial or industrial areas, we may be able to get a more accurate interpolation by poking around the web for the locations along possible "border" lines.

Do we have a situation where a place identifies itself with a certain city, but all places surrounding it identify themselves with one or more different city names? A situation like that, if it exists, cannot be resolved as described above and will need a different treatment.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
Further, we may be forced to aggregate a PCN to some areas, due to Waze requiring use of a particular PCN to form a contiguous polygon, even though there may be (hopefully just some) actual exceptions within it.

I'm not sure we've listed enough examples here to see a pattern developing yet for guidance, or at least I haven't seen them. The only patterns I know so far are the more obvious ones, right?
  • If mailing and municipal city names agree, then the PCN is very likely that name.
  • If the mailing and CDP names agree, then the PCN is probably that name.
  • If the mailing and hamlet name agree, then the PCN is possibly that name.
The big gaps are, in my mind, that municipalities and CDPs and hard, well-known boundaries that you're either in or you're not. Hamlets do not, at least necessarily. And then, the fourth case regarding areas near hamlets: do the addresses you navigate to use the name of a nearby hamlet? Are there enough places that can be looked up, based on their own information, to provide a clue? Do mailing addresses in this case provide a clue? Are there any other resources we can use, like local GIS, that include address city names for lots?

The last example is particularly intriguing because some counties' GIS resources go as far as to specify what city name they use to locate each particular lot, and I've noticed it's not always the municipal name. What would we do in the counties that do not have/provide this information, assuming everything else mentioned above has been exhausted?
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
SpencerFG wrote:In MAR there are many situations where the address in use, either by the USPS or people, doesn't agree with the city naming convention. There we add alt-names to streets and roads so common addressing will work in searches. In NY, Swan Lake, Liberty, White Lake come to mind since two of those even have post offices and hence addresses that should reflect a city.
In my mind, places like Swan Lake and White Lake are actual hamlets and should be displayed both on the map (they're on every other map, right?) and in the selection lists for destinations, not just absorbed by searches and then displayed with completely different city names that many people navigating there wouldn't necessarily even be aware of. Relegating these names into the alternate city names (ACN's) creates a result that is not only inconsistent with every other map around, but also creates an awkward user experience (UX) when places or addresses come back with a different city name than would be expected.

Edit:
Liberty is actually an interesting situation along yet another dimension. There is actually a village called Liberty that is completely surrounded by a town also called Liberty, and together, they both use just Liberty for their addresses. That brings up a 5th case to the list I started below: what happens when addresses might/do use a nearby village for their city name? Example: in Sullivan County, the areas of Thompson near Monticello, which is similar to the Liberty situation, but with different names.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by PhantomSoul
I should also add that, like Nassau County, Rockland County is also divided up into only 3 towns with several villages/cities, with the towns likely more-localized with hamlet names.
PhantomSoul
Local Champ Mentor
Local Champ Mentor
Posts: 1757
Has thanked: 311 times
Been thanked: 511 times
Send a message

Post by sikemever
For the sake of the city layer in app how about the town, county as primary and any alts we need for navigation?
sikemever
Country Manager
Country Manager
Posts: 254
Answers: 1
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 82 times
Send a message

Post by SpencerFG
In MAR there are many situations where the address in use, either by the USPS or people, doesn't agree with the city naming convention. There we add alt-names to streets and roads so common addressing will work in searches. In NY, Swan Lake, Liberty, White Lake come to mind since two of those even have post offices and hence addresses that should reflect a city.
SpencerFG
Posts: 189
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Send a message

Post by SpencerFG
At the possible risk of being off topic, as children, my cousin and I occasionally traveled by bus between Swan Lake and Liberty (where shopping and movie theaters could be found). The bus had painted information near the door: "seats 45, stands 15.". We stood the whole way since the fare was 15 cents.
SpencerFG
Posts: 189
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Send a message
Last edited by SpencerFG on Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post by voludu2
It seems like a good idea to pick a small test area - maybe one where we've seen problems with address search in the past (2 or 3 nearby roads with the same name / HN range, the same name city name reused for hamlet or village or town or something I couldn't keep track of at the time). I remember beachbumli247 struggling with an example a while back, but can't remember the street/city name.

In some difficult spots, it may turn out to be impossible to get good address search without including the mailing address as an alt.
voludu2
Posts: 3098
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 863 times
Send a message