[Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

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[Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby voludu2 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:29 pm

I'd like to update this section to mention that smaller area places "stack" on top of older area places. This does not change guidance - it merely adds information about the current behavior of the app.

Sometimes a large area place has smaller area places within it. Examples include different medical buildings within a hospital campus or separate malls within a large shopping complex. If both places are the same color, Waze will show all the labels but not the boundaries of the different places. If the places are different colors, then a smaller place will appear to cover any portions of any larger area place where the two overlap. It may be a better approach for the time being to use point places for the components of a larger area place unless it is essential that the subset place names be visible. Future versions of the Waze client may render overlapping area places more usefully. Qualifying point places may be converted to area Places at that time.


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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby voludu2 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:10 pm

I think the guidance at the end of the paragraph was really only meant to apply when the contained places are the same color as the larger place. sticking the information about stacking order in the middle creates a change in guidance where none was intended. Instead, how about:
Sometimes a large area place has smaller area places within it. Examples include different medical buildings within a hospital campus or separate malls within a large shopping complex. If both places are the same color, Waze will show all the labels but not the boundaries of the different places - it may be a better approach to use point places for the components of a larger area place unless it is essential that the subset place names be visible. If the places are different colors, then a smaller place will appear to cover any portions of any larger area place where the two overlap - this permits showing a ski resort area in the middle of a national forest, for example.

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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby voludu2 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:30 pm

It has been suggested that the paragraph gives the impression of offering guidance where none has been formulated by the community. If that is the case, perhaps it can be removed.
Sometimes a large area place has smaller area places within it. Examples include different medical buildings within a hospital campus or campgrounds within a national park. If the places are different colors, then a smaller place will appear to be "on top of" any larger area places where they overlap. If they are the same color, then there will be no way to distinguish the two areas. The primary names of all the area places will be visible.

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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby sketch » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:35 pm

I agree with the 2nd iteration. Provides information without changing any guidance.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:58 pm

I agree with it, except for (as discussed in Discord) the last sentence. That would read better as "Overlap has no effect on labels" since size and zoom cause some labels not to be displayed, at least when zoomed out some.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:38 am

When I updated the places page with MEP guidance, I added information about this as well (it had been in my draft before this topic was started) and about colors of certain area place categories. Here's how the section reads now:
Overlapping{{Anchor|Area Places overlap}} wrote:Sometimes a large area place has smaller area places within it. Examples include different medical buildings within a hospital campus or separate malls within a large shopping complex. Smaller area polygons are shown on top of larger polygons. However, if the the colors of the places are the same, Waze will show only the names of the smaller area places but not their boundaries within the larger area. It may be a better approach to use point places for the components of a larger area place unless it is essential that the subset place names be visible. Future versions of the Waze client may render overlapping area places more usefully.

The stuff about using point places where same colors overlap has been in there for years. Are we saying that should go away? I would be fine with it; I find the labels useful on overlapped area places. For example, it's nice to see terminal numbers at an airport.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby sketch » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:04 pm

Kartografer wrote:The stuff about using point places where same colors overlap has been in there for years. Are we saying that should go away? I would be fine with it; I find the labels useful on overlapped area places. For example, it's nice to see terminal numbers at an airport.

I do believe it should go away. I agree. Further, it's futureproofing, in case Waze ever figures out the map display for it.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:57 pm

Kartografer wrote:The stuff about using point places where same colors overlap has been in there for years. Are we saying that should go away? I would be fine with it; I find the labels useful on overlapped area places. For example, it's nice to see terminal numbers at an airport.

The reason that was in there was because many editors at the time felt that the Waze app display did a lousy job of displaying Area-Place-within-Area-Place locations. As we all know, what happens is that text "floats" unmoored in the general vicinity of the embedded Area Place. The driver is given no precision as to where exactly the labeled Place is. Under some circumstances the effect was thought to be jarring.

Since the Area Place display behavior has changed only slightly (in five years), I'm not sure why this floating-text behavior should now be considered OK. I guess we could say that we should no longer worry about this because we all know it's bad, so one day Waze will improve it. Maybe they will, but with apologies to Rumsfeld, don't we go to edit with the display we have, not the display we wish we had?

I do agree that using PP instead of AP for something that would ordinarily get an AP is inconsistent editing practice and annoying. I wish Waze would fix the display instead of us having to work around it. But I'm not sure that is sufficient rationale to stop working around it.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:20 pm

DwarfLord wrote:
Kartografer wrote:The stuff about using point places where same colors overlap has been in there for years. Are we saying that should go away? I would be fine with it; I find the labels useful on overlapped area places. For example, it's nice to see terminal numbers at an airport.

The reason that was in there was because many editors at the time felt that the Waze app display did a lousy job of displaying Area-Place-within-Area-Place locations. As well all know, what happens is that text "floats" unmoored in the general vicinity of the embedded Area Place. The driver is given no precision as to where exactly the labeled Place is. Under some circumstances the effect was thought to be jarring.

It is moored, but it is not fixed. The mooring is the invisible polygon, and the text will display over some part of the area polygon, but it may not be the same part in every view. That's how all area places work. Labels on overlapped places are not incorrect information, just incomplete. Removing this information is not working around some problem, and no one is relying on wishful thinking. If a place is worth displaying as an area, its label is more useful to see than not to see.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Kartografer wrote:...the text will display over some part of the area polygon, but it may not be the same part in every view. That's how all area places work. Labels on overlapped places are not incorrect information, just incomplete. Removing this information is not working around some problem, and no one is relying on wishful thinking. If a place is worth displaying as an area, its label is more useful to see than not to see.

I think I understand your point, but the devil may be in the details. You may be thinking of specific cases, such as a huge state park with one campground, that itself covers a large area. In such cases I agree that there is little harm, and potential benefit, in displaying the text "floating" over the general area of the campground. In fact I recently created just such a situation, so I am guilty of putting an Area Place within another Area Place; the result looks a bit silly but I think it is a net win because, as you say, the floating campground label is not absurdly detached from the campground location. I do agree guidance should be more flexible in this respect.

However, at the time of the original guidance, there were other examples -- generally in areas with clusters of several embedded Area Places -- that led the community to craft that language. In such cases it was judged that reducing driver puzzlement and/or frustration caused by these floating names could outweigh whatever benefit they conveyed. Driver puzzlement resulting from Waze's native display behavior is a problem, and adjusting our editing practice to reduce it is working around that problem.

Editor perspectives about Area Places, and our judgements about what drivers think of them, seem to differ radically from one editor to the next. Perhaps we can soften the language without eliminating it?
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