Schools and Stop Points

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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby DrivingWithBill » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:35 pm

This all stemmed from wanting WMEPH to flag a location as not having an entry point. Apparently it needs wiki guidance. I think there are plenty of examples not needing an entry point however without wiki guidance apparently there is little that can be done for the scripts.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:45 pm

DrivingWithBill wrote:This all stemmed from wanting WMEPH to flag a location as not having an entry point. Apparently it needs wiki guidance. I think there are plenty of examples not needing an entry point however without wiki guidance apparently there is little that can be done for the scripts.

Thanks for clarifying (repeating?) your ultimate goal. I think I understand now.

I expect the reason for requiring wiki guidance is that it is not unheard of for some editors to fall into a mode of blindly doing whatever a script tells them to do without investigation or analysis. Most of the time the results are beneficial, or at least neutral, but on occasion they are disastrous. So yes, the community can be a bit sensitive about scripts suggesting changes that are not absolutely justified by agreed-upon guidance.

We've identified some ways we could improve the Places article, but it sounds like that would not actually solve your problem. What you need is wiki backup for a script writer to flag schools with no explicit entry point.

If that's the goal, then I agree that something having to do with per-category Place harmonization would be the place for that wiki backup.

Schools are a very popular destination category and I would have no problem with requiring an explicit stop point for them. Since the purpose is not to educate editors but rather simply to give backup to script writers, I'm not sure I could get behind a huge new requirement list covering a wide variety of categories besides Schools and maybe a handful of other popular destination categories. The language could just say the list is not exclusive, or use your judgement, blah blah.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby Kartografer » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:05 pm

Not everything flagged by PNH is backed up in the wiki. For example, PNH will mark some categories as blue or red if they don't have an address, URL or hours. Other categories are green with just a name. The guidance This is why each region has appointed one or more people as PNH moderators; they are given the authority not just to update the PNH tables but to make those calls in their regions. I see this as the same.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:27 pm

Kartografer wrote:[...] each region has appointed one or more people as PNH moderators; they are given the authority not just to update the PNH tables but to make those calls in their regions.


Just curious, where should the OP go for a nationwide PNH ruling? If we can accommodate him with a nationwide top-down call, I imagine that would be better than a number of bottom-up calls by regional moderators.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby jm6087 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:00 pm

DwarfLord wrote:
Kartografer wrote:[...] each region has appointed one or more people as PNH moderators; they are given the authority not just to update the PNH tables but to make those calls in their regions.


Just curious, where should the OP go for a nationwide PNH ruling? If we can accommodate him with a nationwide top-down call, I imagine that would be better than a number of bottom-up calls by regional moderators.


I would suggest bringing it up with their PNH regional moderator to bring up to the group for discussion. My only point that I originally made (in the WMEPH forum) was that the wiki does not state that entry points are required on AP per the wiki. The way it is written is that the editor should decide if an entry point should be added, not have the script require it to be added to turn green.

With the way the current wiki guidance is written, I could see (and support) having WMEPH flag for the editor to review if an entry point is need but it should not prevent any AP from going green but that would probably be a vote among the mods. And ultimately for Mike to decide if it is possible to add.

I actually tend to add an entry point to most of my AP and PP places. I think they have more benefit than negative aspects to it.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby sketch » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:08 pm

I honestly see very little reason not to add an entry point to nearly every area place. Even if you just leave it in the center, at least there's now a visual indication in WME of what it's going to do.

Very limited exceptions for things like natural features (rivers, lakes, forests). But even on a smallish park with no defined entrance, it may be beneficial to have the "you are here" point on a certain road and not on another.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby DrivingWithBill » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:07 pm

How does this move forward? WMEPH said taking it to the wiki, wiki is saying taking it to PNH? I’m confused on how to get this implemented?
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby jm6087 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:23 pm

DrivingWithBill wrote:How does this move forward? WMEPH said taking it to the wiki, wiki is saying taking it to PNH? I’m confused on how to get this implemented?


Have you brought it up with your PNH moderator to discuss with the rest of the moderators?

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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby jm6087 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:34 pm

sketch wrote:I honestly see very little reason not to add an entry point to nearly every area place. Even if you just leave it in the center, at least there's now a visual indication in WME of what it's going to do.

Very limited exceptions for things like natural features (rivers, lakes, forests). But even on a smallish park with no defined entrance, it may be beneficial to have the "you are here" point on a certain road and not on another.


I agree, but that would be a wiki change.
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Re: Schools and Stop Points

Postby Kartografer » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:48 pm

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have an entry point on any area place that will be driven to. I'm cool with a blanket recommendation to add entry points to any area place that people would drive to. How about in this section:
Area place location details wrote:By default, navigation to an area place will stop on the segment closest to the center of the area. If this is not where drivers would stop when bringing people to the place,Add one or more [[#Entry point|entry points]] may be used to all area places, unless these places are for display only (lakes, islands, etc.).

Coupled with links in this section:
Entry point wrote:An entry point (formerly known as a stop point) causes navigation to a place to end on the drivable segment closest to the entry point, rather than the [[#Location details|point place marker]] or the [[#Location details 2|center of the area place]].
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