[Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:36 pm

DwarfLord wrote:However, at the time of the original guidance, there were other examples -- generally in areas with clusters of several embedded Area Places -- that led the community to craft that language. In such cases it was judged that reducing driver puzzlement and/or frustration caused by these floating names could outweigh whatever benefit they conveyed. Driver puzzlement resulting from Waze's native display behavior is a problem, and adjusting our editing practice to reduce it is working around that problem.

Editor perspectives about Area Places, and our judgements about what drivers think of them, seem to differ radically from one editor to the next. Perhaps we can soften the language without eliminating it?

So where does this currently this cause driver puzzlement and frustration? Could it have been from parking lots, before most parking lot places displayed differently from other area places?
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:57 pm

Kartografer wrote:
DwarfLord wrote:However, at the time of the original guidance, there were other examples -- generally in areas with clusters of several embedded Area Places -- that led the community to craft that language. In such cases it was judged that reducing driver puzzlement and/or frustration caused by these floating names could outweigh whatever benefit they conveyed. Driver puzzlement resulting from Waze's native display behavior is a problem, and adjusting our editing practice to reduce it is working around that problem.

Editor perspectives about Area Places, and our judgements about what drivers think of them, seem to differ radically from one editor to the next. Perhaps we can soften the language without eliminating it?

So where does this currently this cause driver puzzlement and frustration? Could it have been from parking lots, before most parking lot places displayed differently from other area places?

My recollection is that the original problem occurred mostly at airports and at various kinds of campuses, especially medical campuses with their Area Place exemption, where editors had mapped various buildings and destinations with Area Places, sometimes with long names. All that showed up on the app was a uniform gray polygon with multiple long text labels floating around it and occasionally interfering with each other. This was long before Waze made parking a thing, so I don't think parking lots were part of the original problem.

I need to repeat this test, but just recently I had the impression that parking lots within larger conference/event center area places display with a different color in the daytime theme, but with the identical color in the nighttime theme. Where's the Pepto-Bismol?
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:08 pm

Maybe the labels used to float around more freely than they do now. They seem to show in the center of the place unless the polygon is partially off the screen, in which case they move to be easier to see. Parking lots, except for giant ones, display at a different color at day and at the same color at night, but their names are not shown, so it doesn't matter. I work close to the Ohio State University, and the smaller area places inside it look fine to me. You can see where various stadia and other facilities are. It is not confusing in the slightest; it would be really weird not to see the labels for at least some of these places.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Well, perhaps it's not the problem it used to be. I believe our Area Place eligibility guidance tightened up also since that time, which would reduce the scale of the problem. I will check out Ohio State and see if I can find other example situations.

p.s. Thanks for confirming I'm not going crazy that Parking-Lot APs within other APs do indeed disappear at night. You're right, if there's no text, then not part of this issue. Just one more idiosyncrasy.
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby DwarfLord » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:15 pm

Kartografer wrote:the smaller area places inside it [Ohio State University] look fine to me. You can see where various stadia and other facilities are. It is not confusing in the slightest; it would be really weird not to see the labels for at least some of these places.

I've looked at this and while the intentions are certainly good, I don't think the way this appears to the end user is as useful as we would wish. But I don't think it's dreadful either. I do appreciate that stadiums are popular destinations and valuable orientation cues. I can see value in displaying their names, even if those names do "float" gray-on-gray over the campus Area Place.

The real problem here is really Waze's display limitations. So, here is a suggestion that focuses on those limitations.

In the "Overlapping" section of the USA Wazeopedia Places article:

Proposed text wrote:Overlapping

Sometimes a large Area Place has smaller eligible Area Places within it. Examples include urgent care facilities within a hospital campus or stadiums within a university. If an Area Place is mapped as a subset of another, then provided the categories render with different colors, the smaller area polygon will display within the larger polygon.

In the common case where the Places share the identical display color, however, Waze will show the name of the smaller Area Place but not its boundaries within the larger Area Place. Waze will show both names with the identical typeface and font size; drivers won't have any cues as to relative significance without reading the names. Further, to avoid overlapping text, Waze may omit a name altogether depending from moment to moment on name length, Area-Place size, and screen center, zoom, and orientation.

Because of this display behavior, the end result of overlapping Area Places may involve unintended artifacts. The name of a more important Area Place may be omitted to favor one less important, the display may crowd with many names all appearing equally important, or the names may render far enough from their true location to be less useful for orientation. To minimize such artifacts, exercise discretion when mapping Area Places as subsets of others. Guidance for some Place categories recommends using Point Places for subset locations, even if normally eligible for an Area Place. For other categories, particularly when the subset and encompassing Area Places are of the same category, it is not necessarily wrong to use a Point Place instead of a subset Area Place to optimize the end user's display experience; consult local leadership on the best approach.


I will head for the bunker now :mrgreen:
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Re: [Page Update]Places#Area_Places_overlap

Postby Kartografer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:20 pm

I can get down with the "use discretion" thing here, but I do not see names rendering far away from their true location just because of an overlap, nor do I see more important names being hidden by less important names. At least part of the label is over the area place always, though the position of the label varies with zoom levels. I do see how the text size of names is always the same, independent of the size of the place, but this is no different for places that are side-by-side. The only real negative side effect is that the name of a smaller place may be mistaken as labeling the larger area place around it, like Celeste Center (a specific building in the middle of the Ohio Expo Center) being understood as the name of the entire Ohio Expo Center. You can imagine I'm just panning around my location in Waze :D The "part being mistaken for the whole" effect is reason enough for us to recommend discretion with overlapping area places. Do you have examples of omission or displacement?
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