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At the crossroads, continue - please upvote!

Post by titchy_
Is anyone else bored of having conversations with users about the lack of instruction at rural crossroads? I know this subject has caused a fair bit of debate and has divided opinion but surely with the amount of URs this generates, something should be done about it? I get at least 2 a week and only look after a small portion of the country. 

I created a suggestion in the Waze Uservoice. If you agree, an upvote would help: link

If you're new to this, this is one of the many threads discussing it.

Today's example.
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Post by Twister-UK
The problem I have with this crossroads proposal is that, at other types of junction, the instructions given now are consistent regardless of which route you take through it - i.e. regardless of the path you're taking through a junction, or what restrictions there may be on you being able to follow it freely (give way/stop lines, traffic lights, oncoming traffic etc.), the app simply tells you which direction you need to go to follow that path.  So you get the *same* "turn left" (say) instruction when turning off the main road into a side road as you do when turning out of the side road onto the main road, even though those two moves have differing priorities and requirements placed on the user in order to complete the turn safely/legally.

As such, at present users can be told, if they haven't already figured it out for themselves, that the instructions Waze provides are there *solely* to indicate which direction they need to proceed at times when it might not be instantly obvious (as my old driving instructor used to say - "follow the road ahead unless I or the signs say otherwise"...), and should not also be used as a way of inferring *anything* else about the nature of the route they're being asked to follow.


However, when we start talking about adding "go straight/continue/whatever the hell it translates into for any given version of the app/translation data" instructions to a crossroads, we're only ever talking about doing so on the minor axis.  As such, for any crossroads where we add this instruction override, not only would we then be introducing an inconsistency in how crossroads behave at the basic route instruction level depending on whether your path through them follows the major (no instruction) or minor (go straight instruction) axis, but we're ALSO introducing an additional explicit indication of priority - get the instruction, give way, don't get the instruction, proceed as-is...  Except for crossroads where we haven't felt it necessary to add the override, in which case users who's drives take them through both types of crossroads will end up having an even more inconsistent experience as they find some crossroads giving them this instruction whilst others don't, without it necessarily being obvious to them why that is.

Note also that, on approach to a crossroads, a user won't necessarily know they're approaching one - unless they're paying attention to the onscreen map and can see the geometry of the junction, there's nothing about the verbal/written instructions they're getting to indicate this.  As we also use "go straight" at other junctions for good reason, it wouldn't then be possible for users to simply learn that whenever they hear a "go straight" it means FOR CERTAIN that they're approaching a somewhat poorly signposted/reduced visibility crossroads at which they have to give way/stop, so either they won't give this instruction the level of importance we're hoping they will in these instances, or they'll end up over-reacting if they hear the same instruction being given at other times, due to their being conditioned into believing it means "watch out!"


Which is why I'm deeply uncomfortable in trying to "hack" the current instructions into providing more information to users than they're intended to provide. 
 
 
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Post by Twister-UK
Also my personal opinion. I can never support such an idea until such time as the app can give a "give way/stop ahead" instruction, as to give any instruction which might be misinterpreted as indicating that the user has priority over the road they're about to cross isn't something I can accept us deliberately doing.
 
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Post by titchy_
Ianinessex wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:31 am Hi All.
An update on the situation regarding instructions at crossroads.

Following the start of this discussion, the Champs took this off line and have had an extended and occasionally heated discussion about the issue. As I am sure you are aware, there are 2 very polarised opinions about this issue.

After considerable thought and discussion, there was a vote and the result was a majority in favour of not having TOI at any crossroads.

The main reasoning behind this was that currently there is no appropriate instruction available. Adding a "Continue" or "Straight on" instruction at a crossroads where you actually need to either stop or at least give way is inappropriate. While it does give a warning that there is a crossroads there, the instruction could easily be misunderstood to mean you can proceed without stopping. There were other issues and concerns raised, but this (for me) was the deciding one.

While the decision by the Champs included that the current instructions at crossroads should be removed, we have decided that as this situation has been in place for several years, there is no urgency to do this. With immediate effect, the ruling is that all existing TOI at crossroad can be left in place, but no new ones should be added. The UK Wazeopedia will shortly be updated to reflect this decision.



Having said all that, during our time considering this it became obvious that we do need something which can be used it identify a "hidden" or otherwise not obvious, junction or hazard of any type. We will be continuing the discussion to find a solution to this issue and then work out how it can be implemented. As there is currently no solution we can see using the existing options in the WME, any solution will need some work from the Waze Development team and so it will not happen quickly. 

Please be patient and hopefully we will work out and be able to implement a satisfactory solution to this sometime "soon".

If any of you have any suggestions - and we are looking at any ideas, no matter how obscure - please post them. What we need to do is work out what we would like as an ideal solution for the driver in the app, and then work backwards to see how / if we can achieve this.

Because of this, I am particularly interested in hearing from those of you who drive a lot. What would you want to be told when approaching a hidden hazard? (crossroads, T junction, sharp bend, hidden side road, etc - and I am sure there are lots I have not thought of yet) Do not worry about how to implement it, just explain the result you would want in the app. Once we have that clear, we can then go on to try and work out how best to achieve it.
 

 
Thank you. I'm pleased to hear it is being talked about seriously and not just dismissed as based on the number of URs and involvement from many users in this thread, it is a clear issue.

I agree there isn't a solution today and that was the point of this thread and the UserVoice post; it was to find one. 

I look forward to more updates.
 
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Post by titchy_
ditchi56 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:49 pm For what it's worth, here is my stock response to UR's at rural give-ways:
Hi, volunteer map editor here.

I'm guessing you are reporting the lack of instruction where you have to give way and go straight on?

Until recently, Waze had no facility to say "go straight on"; if it wasn't a left turn or a right turn there was no instruction it could give. Most people think this is fine; Waze is a navigation device, not a substitute for the driver looking out for give way signs and other hazards.

We do now have a "go straight" instruction, and I personally am happy to apply it where drivers have to give way (although not at traffic lights). I have just added it to this junction (it will take a couple of days to take effect).

Feel free to go on reporting such junctions, but be warned you may get a different response if another editor picks up your report.

I hope you continue to enjoy using Waze :)
 
 

 
Seems like even that doesn't work. Today's example: Permalink  :roll:
 
 
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Post by titchy_
iangpowell wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:21 am
titchy_ wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:48 am Sooner or later this will end up with an accident Waze will get blamed for.



 
And if Waze told these users to drive off a cliff, would they follow like robots and do it? I totally see both sides of the argument, but any car driver still has to remain 100% in control of their vehicle and be totally responsible for any decisions they do or do not take, rather than being dictated to by a mobile phone app that is simply there to give them general guidance to a specified destination.


A BMW driver followed his Sat Nav straight into river - is this the sat navs fault, or the drivers fault for not using their common sense?

 
Ultimately the driver's although who knows, depending on the situation a judge may sympathise. Could it have been avoided by accurate mapping? Yes.

I remember the infamous Rufford Ford in Nottinghamshire where until December 2022 it was a street with no restrictions. Waze took me that way to Rufford Golf Club one day. Depending on the water levels, Waze would be quite literally directing you into a river.
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Post by titchy_
Twister-UK wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:18 amThere's clearly a problem affecting some users, yes. But would it be rude of me to suggest the problem may lie more with those users than with Waze? Because if, on their driving test, they were unaware of the approaching crossroads based solely on what they could see through the windscreen ahead of them, and didn't therefore slow/stop in a controlled manner as required, they'd not be earning their licence that day.

 
Firstly, "some users" massively understates this problem IMO. Secondly, I've never once suggested the user is blameless here - they of course are ultimately responsible for being in control of their vehicle at all times. However, if we can do something which may save someone's life, are we happy to wash our hands of it and say 'not my problem, guv'?
If, instead of Waze, they were being directed by a passenger who was giving them the same sort of instructions - "take the 2nd turn on the left", "half a mile to the exit" etc - as Waze, but who also wasn't aware of the crossroads and so didn't give them any sort of warning of its existence, would it be reasonable for the passenger to get blamed for the accident? 
Would the driver in this example be following a map with a line on it held up by the passenger? Unlikely. I'd imagine the vast majority of users of any sat nav use their screen for directions a lot. I know I do because I cannot fully trust verbal instructions. "Turn right in 50 yards" when there are several right turns could result in me taking the wrong one because the gps is so crap and lags behind.



I'll not bother saying any more. I've made my point and sadly it seems the majority of editors disagree. Although it's a shame that some higher rank editors have declined to get involved despite with them being for it in the past.
 
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Post by titchy_
This isn't rocket science though is it. There's clearly a problem affecting Waze's customer base which occurs on a daily basis. It's not a one-off. Shouldn't it be something we try to resolve? Whatever the solution, there has to be one. I just don't believe ignoring it is the right course of action. 

Sooner or later this will end up with an accident Waze will get blamed for.
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Post by titchy_
iangpowell wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:51 pm But on the flip side, and this is just me playing devil's advocate, you could argue that all motorists should be travelling at an appropriate speed and be able to stop in the distance they can see is safe, being able to react and respond to signage or road markings that suggests a junction priority is against them.

 
I'm not sure if you saw the give way sign at the example I gave? It's not a perfect example because at this junction there is a 170yd warning, but I suspect this issue can be quite common in the countryside:

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Post by titchy_
jonv-uk wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:59 pm Waze is there to tell the driver what route to take. Turn left, Take the second exit, Keep right, Use the left two lanes etc are all directions to follow, not instructions of how to drive the route.
If we start adding Continue instructions at crossroads drivers will come to expect to hear it, leaving Waze potentially at blame for not telling drivers at junctions that haven't been mapped yet. We'd have to map every crossroads for consistency.

It's not Waze's job to tell a driver how to drive, should we also map alerts for
Traffic lights & pedestrian Crossings? (Traffic light junction ahead, prepare to stop if the light is red)
Zebra Crossings? (pedestrian crossing ahead, look out for pedestrians waiting to cross)
Corners with advisory speed reductions? (Sharp corner ahead, prepare to slow down)
Cycle paths (Turn left onto Main St, caution cycle lane crossing junction, prepare to give way to cyclist)
How far do we go?


 
 

 
Don't agree with that at all. Mapping every crossroads is not necessary and not at all my suggestion. I can't think of one occasion a user has flagged this type of issue in a built up area.

This is being over-thought. 
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