Primary Streets (US)

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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:50 pm

skbun wrote:B -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.
C -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.
D -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.

E -> A: Usually works, but what Waze considers 'Hyampom, CA' to be is not the same as what you get in Hayfork to Hyampom, below. The destination point is literally different, a few km short of the town. This suggests to me this might be right on the edge of failing. Good test case?
F -> A: Works, reliably, using Hyampom Rd, and shows the endpoint at the proper destination point.
Some interesting things...

Trying to route to this node (-123.455451, 40.617244) in Hyampon, CA from geometry point #134 (-123.469421, 40.741238) of this segment works. (Livemap 13.8533 km PtP)
Try from #135 (-123.469881, 40.740938) and it fails with "No street found at this point". (13.8234 km PtP)
If the destination is moved closer to this node (-123.45345666819, 40.617490946621) the route works from point #135 (13.8118 km PtP).

As a test how about changing the Type to Primary for Underwood and Corral Bottom. Since all these segments have zero transit data we're working with pure default speeds. But what's likely killing the route is a pruning on PtP vs Driven ratio that's Type dependent.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:01 am

bgodette wrote:It's going to be very hard for me to find an example that uses Street as the principle route as all my well edited areas are for the most part Typed as functional class. However I can give you my favorite...


I've got a pretty good one here, keyed and colored to make it easy to see. I'll submit a nanorep in case they're interested.

Roads in orange are plain 'streets'. CA-299 is a major highway, CA-3 is a minor highway, and Hyampom Rd in blue is a primary street. Here's some combinations that typically fail or succeed:

B -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.
C -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.
D -> A: Fails with 'no route found'.

E -> A: Usually works, but what Waze considers 'Hyampom, CA' to be is not the same as what you get in Hayfork to Hyampom, below. The destination point is literally different, a few km short of the town. This suggests to me this might be right on the edge of failing. Good test case?
F -> A: Works, reliably, using Hyampom Rd, and shows the endpoint at the proper destination point.
Attachments
hyampom.png
Routing choices for Hyampom, CA
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:31 pm

skbun wrote:...if it has, I believe I can prove that that behavior has changed - well, on reflection, or at least that there's a limit of 20-30 miles out. Route: State Rte 89 Scn at 121.41816,40.70436 to Susanville, CA. The obvious route for this is CA-44 (which is 62 minutes, 59 miles).
...
I'm more than open to the idea that I could be wrong...have I missed something? (I just want to say I wouldn't have made this assertion without having something to look at.)
AFAIK long range routing hasn't significantly changed since the last time they fiddled with the Point to Point distance vs Driven distance ratio, which was nearly a year ago.

It's going to be very hard for me to find an example that uses Street as the principle route as all my well edited areas are for the most part Typed as functional class. However I can give you my favorite "long range" with Primary as principle as well as Primary in the middle (Shelburn to Colrain is Primary with a point-to-point of 7.29372 km).

Another thought had occurred to me regarding the NanoRep list and what it actually could be. That thought was that those were the point-to-point radius limits from the current decision point (Node). However I have a well edited example that doesn't fit that idea as well: 311.440 km PtP, works, 313.460 km PtP, fails. Both destinations are on the same exact 29.255 km segment.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:44 am

AndyPoms wrote:A couple of points...
[*]You need to make sure you are using the FEDERAL Functional Classification Maps/Info for each state. Some states have their own Functional Classification Maps in addition to the Federal ones and there are differences between each.
[*]Each state uses different colors for their maps, so, specifying anything by color is a bad idea

Hm. I do believe I have Washington's federal. Do you have a list of the various states' federal maps, so that mistake isn't made?

(And to the other)...Oops. You're right! Edited my post to use names instead of colors. :)
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:34 am

bgodette wrote:
skbun wrote:... and beyond about 10 miles, Waze won't route THROUGH a 'street' no matter how good the speeds on it are.
Not that there's anything wrong with your suggestion, but this has been demonstrated to be false using both the client and livemap.


...if it has, I believe I can prove that that behavior has changed - well, on reflection, or at least that there's a limit of 20-30 miles out. Route: State Rte 89 Scn at 121.41816,40.70436 to Susanville, CA. The obvious route for this is CA-44 (which is 62 minutes, 59 miles). Until a few days ago when I brought attention to it to a CM, this entire route was contiguous, but only 'street' class. You can prove continuity by trying routing on CA-44 in two overlapping pieces between the two points- they go through on the livemap.

However, the only choices Waze will come up with to make this route are:
2h22m, 107 miles, and,
2h36m, 134 miles.

I'm more than open to the idea that I could be wrong...have I missed something? (I just want to say I wouldn't have made this assertion without having something to look at.)
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby AndyPoms » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:10 am

A couple of points...
  • You need to make sure you are using the FEDERAL Functional Classification Maps/Info for each state. Some states have their own Functional Classification Maps in addition to the Federal ones and there are differences between each.
  • Each state uses different colors for their maps, so, specifying anything by color is a bad idea
  • These maps are updated every 10 years
  • In 2009 USDOT Changes the Definitions to eliminate the distinction between Urban & Rural - this change caught several states mid-cycle, so there's a good change the new definitions won't make it to all the states till 2019
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby bgodette » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:56 am

skbun wrote:... and beyond about 10 miles, Waze won't route THROUGH a 'street' no matter how good the speeds on it are.
Not that there's anything wrong with your suggestion, but this has been demonstrated to be false using both the client and livemap.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby skbun » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:11 am

Spil wrote:I realize that I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but here's what I've been doing in recent months (with considerable success) in rural areas of upstate NY with regard to Primary Streets. Most "county routes" came in with the basemap as Minor Highway, the same level as "state routes" -- but for the most part, they're rather unequal in real life ;). Thus, I've been downgrading such CR's to Primary Street, while leaving SR's at Minor Highway (and US routes mainly as Major Highway, unless they clearly should be only Minor Highway). I've also been upgrading the CR's that came in as "Street" so that they are "Primary Street".


I'd like to propose a new, and easy to follow standard that doesn't require as much individual interpretation on the part of editors. I've already implemented it in King County, Washington, and the difference in routing options and the speed Waze seems to find them is literally night and day.

We as Waze editors actually don't have to waste much of our time determining which roads are important where, and what a 'highway' or a 'street' is defined by. Here's why.

FHWA Directive 23 CFR 470 states that the State transportation agency has the primary responsibility for developing and updating a statewide highway functional classification in rural and urban areas to determine functional usage of the existing roads and streets.

Each of the 50 states has published and browseable Functional Classification maps. In Washington, that's located at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/MapsData/Tools/FunctionalClass/ , but every state has them (I'll be happy to create a forum post with all 50, as far as that goes). The advantage here is that someone whose job it is to DO this all day has already made all these determinations, and done it on freely published maps, so we don't have to waste our time reinventing the wheel.

Here's my simple rule of thumb for Washington, granting I'm not a CM and can't do this for the whole state, but I can do it in areas I drive and manage:

Any road colored ANYTHING is a primary street or above, rural or urban. It is an important road by some definition, and beyond about 10 miles, Waze won't route THROUGH a 'street' no matter how good the speeds on it are.
Any road meeting the standard of a freeway (high speed, no at grade intersections, no traffic lights) is a freeway. It doesn't matter if it's an Interstate or a County Road. (Coincidentally, this also makes the 'Avoid freeways' option in the client do the Right Thing.)
Any 'Other Freeway' or 'Principle Arterial' rural road that is not a freeway is a Major Highway. Rare select roads in high density urban areas will also get this, but most urban streets aren't high speed if they're not already a freeway. In small towns these are more likely.
The rest is open to a bit of interpretation, but intuitively I think I get it. 'Other Principle Arterial' and 'Minor arterial' urban roads I make 'minor highways'. If there is a 'Major collector', I look at it in context. Most of the time they're primary streets. (Oh, and trust me, this last paragraph? There are ongoing discussions in other states, Connecticut comes to mind, about these 'on the fence' cases.)

Here's the result of these efforts, based on the published FC maps, in:
King County: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=0&lat ... FFTFTTTTFT
Eureka, CA: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=1&lat ... FFTFTTTTFT
Susanville, CA: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=1&lat ... FFTFTTTTFT

Before I began changes in early December, Waze would find one, or maybe two routes to downtown Seattle from Kent/Federal Way. Now, it fairly easily finds three, and in what I perceive is less time.

The kiss of death for Waze's routing engine, by comparison, is a city that looks like this:
Laramie, WY: https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=0&lat ... FFTFTTTTFT

From experience, I can say that if you're in the northeast corner of that city and try to navigate to the city center, Waze will tend to pick one road, and no alternates. I suspect that if there was a traffic jam in between, Waze would also have a hard time picking an alternate then.

I'm happy to share this with editors that can help - and admittedly this will be most useful to AMs and CMs, because this is a seriously time consuming process and requires a lot of rural road traversal. King County took me about a week of heavy editing. (It needs classifying the road, determing one/two way, and making sure turn restrictions allow travel on said roads).

I hope we can make a project out of this, because I believe if this were done everywhere in the U.S., Waze's 'problems with rural areas' would be gone rather quickly. It also greatly reduces 'Most users didn't take the suggested route' URs, because FC maps show HOW they want drivers to be directed, minor to major roads and back again. Users don't want to be routed onto 'a street', generally; they want to go from a major to major road when going across town, and the FC maps tell us, to completion, where those are.

EDIT: Changed color references to their names in the Washington FC maps.
Last edited by skbun on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby ncc1701v » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:00 am

The question is whether numbered routes should ever just be primary streets. (If it doesn't have a number it can't be a highway.) I try to follow a few rules of thumb. First, consistency in the area - the distinctions made in west Texas won't apply in northeast New Jersey. Second, what matters most is routing behavior - it's the /relative/ differences that matter, not the absolute ones. Finally, for my area, all other things aside, I consider roads used to get between multiple neighborhoods as primary streets, while roads used to get across the whole town and out if it may be highways.

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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby Spil » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:35 am

I realize that I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but here's what I've been doing in recent months (with considerable success) in rural areas of upstate NY with regard to Primary Streets. Most "county routes" came in with the basemap as Minor Highway, the same level as "state routes" -- but for the most part, they're rather unequal in real life ;). Thus, I've been downgrading such CR's to Primary Street, while leaving SR's at Minor Highway (and US routes mainly as Major Highway, unless they clearly should be only Minor Highway). I've also been upgrading the CR's that came in as "Street" so that they are "Primary Street".

In areas where I've done this extensively thus far (for example, Steuben County), this has been a tremendous aid in improving the routing across rural areas where there are decent CR's but no SR's. (Zoom in a level on that link and scroll around a bit, and you'll be able to see how the Primary Street network of CR's helps clarify the best ways to get around the county.) Of course, I haven't tweaked all of the CR's yet (even in this county), but there's enough there to make a remarkable improvement already. So that's one thing that PS's are definitely good for! ;)
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