Primary Streets (US)

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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:59 pm

sketch wrote:I used to think the same way, that a US highway should always be "Major". But US-90 meanders through New Orleans on a number of surface streets with seemingly little rhyme or reason. The bits of streets which are part of US-90 aren't any different than the rest of Broad, Canal, or Claiborne, and they aren't any different than the other roads in the area, as far as routing is concerned. And still, if the difference between Major and Minor had nothing to do with routing, it'd look a bit silly if some segments of some streets were wider than others for, as it seems to the average user, no reason.


Hwy 90 meanders though New Orleans as a highlighted road in any Atlas. It's not any different. Some people like to travel on the US Highways because they get to see things other than boring interstate.

My Garmin had an "Avoid Freeways" option and it would follow the US Highways just like that.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:13 pm

sketch wrote:It's a goal of mine to one day travel all of US-90 or, better yet, the Old Spanish Trail.


I've traveled all of US-90 from Lake Charles, LA to the middle of Florida. That's about 1/3 of it. I'd like to do US-11 and US-61. I also followed the saga of the guys driving the Jefferson Hwy from Minnesota to New Orleans a year or two ago. I'm not exactly sure what the exact route of the Old Spanish Trail is.

I know we're not the only ones...that's why the Avoid Freeways option is a must.

And now I'm wondering how we got on this subject in the Primary Streets thread... :?:
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:49 am

bgodette wrote:I'm expanding the tails of the rig so long-route can be tested as well, means adding a bunch of segments to extend out more than 10k from the north and south.


Can you do that without interfering with real roads? I guess you could always do switchbacks to cover the distance.

Every time I hear mention that the Waze developers aren't sure of something, I start to wonder if the software has developed a mind of its own and the development team is no longer in any kind of control of it. :lol:
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:28 pm

CBenson wrote:I don't think so. Waze can't find a route from the minor highway in Shady Side to the minor highway on Tilghman Island here.


Bad permalink.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:28 pm

CBenson wrote:Maybe because waze can't find the route? The permalink gets you to the correct location over the Chesapeake Bay does it not? Go ahead and try to route from the highway in Shady Side on the Western shore to the highway on Tilghman Island on the Eastern Shore. Or for that matter try routing from any highway near the shore on one side to a highway near the shore on the other side.


Okay, I see. I posted a similar one to that (in some other thread) a couple of weeks ago. Try Venice, LA to Grand Isle, LA. 20 miles as the crow flies but about 150 miles on the road, all Major, Minor and Freeway from start to finish.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby jondrush » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:43 am

WeeeZer14 wrote:Branching off the discussion on Primary Streets which started from the discussion on Service Roads.

Summary of thoughts so far:

mapcat wrote:
WeeeZer14 wrote:my "rule" that any ramp should terminate on at least a Primary Street as well. (Except for say rest areas or ramps to a private/secured campus.

Good rule. Ought to be the standard.


[

Guess you've never driven in the Midwest much. Sometimes a farmer with political influence got a interstate exit to his farm lane. No rule can be hard and fast. I have at least one example of a non-primary road getting an exit in my area too.

As far as roads changing type, I think if we insert the phrase "long stretches" in the rules (guidelines?) We can allow for changing types. I don't like seeing patchworks, but I do like seeing long stretches of road type reflected in the color coding.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:29 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:What is the point, well it may be that the original intent was display only. Just like my thought for Service Roads. Priority is part of what we are trying to hash out in the discussion of NJ road types. Right now I am thinking that primary street should be a tier below Minor Highway. It is something that is important/high volume, but calling it a highway would be very generous.

Let's say you have two urban roads with similar volume, similar physical structure, similar number of curb cuts, etc. One has a state hwy number, one doesn't. Do you make the one without a number a minor highway, or do you make the one with a number a primary street?

Personally I'd make the one with a number a minor highway and the one without a primary street. I'm basing this on pure speculation that the routing server doesn't care anything about the road type in this case. Someday, I'd really like to have a long discussion about this with the routing server. Eventually I think it would come over to my side.

I guess this touches on some of the difference between a highway (a physical structure) and a route (a logical designation). Sometimes they play nice together, other times they bash heads.

Maybe that's the problem here. I don't associate "highway" with physical structure, at least not in the IF physical structure=highway THEN category=(major, minor) highway sense. For example, the road we're currently calling "US Hwy 23" is sometimes a freeway, sometimes a major highway, and sometimes a minor highway in Ohio. When it goes through some small towns as a 2-lane street, it's really no more or less important than the 2-lane streets it intersects at stoplights. But they're not marked with state highway signs, so they get to be primary streets on the map, and it passes through as a minor highway.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:59 pm

bgodette wrote:So you're of the opinion that:

Interstates are always Freeway.
US Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Major
State Highways are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Minor
Other roads (unnumbered) are sometimes Freeway if built to interstate standard, otherwise Primary or below depending on functional considerations.

But you would like routing to consider Primary to be the same as Minor as far as base transit cost and route pruning.

Sorry, was out in the snow watching my kid not sell many girl scout cookies.

That not quite what I had in mind. Based on Ohio, to start: not all US Highways should be major highways; where US-23 basically shadows I-75 it's not the main route through that area and should be downgraded. Other US highways have 2 lanes and no shoulders: definitely not major. The majority of state highways should probably be minor, with the exception of the main ones (long, typically 4-lane divided, wide shoulders).

But yes, I'd like it if primary street was reserved for non-freeway, non-badged roads of some significance, and that it matched minor highway in terms of transit cost and route pruning.
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:13 pm

sketch wrote:Is it not confirmed that the Avoid Highways flag will avoid Minor Highway type and not Primary Street

Yes, but wasn't that exact issue brought up as a reason to eliminate the Avoid Highways option?

and also, that the routing server will not consider a Primary Street in the first or last, what, 10km of a route?

That was what I wasn't sure about. It seemed that Waze wasn't sure themselves. Has anyone done a definitive test?
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Re: Primary Streets (US)

Postby mapcat » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:18 pm

jondrush wrote:Guess you've never driven in the Midwest much. Sometimes a farmer with political influence got a interstate exit to his farm lane. No rule can be hard and fast. I have at least one example of a non-primary road getting an exit in my area too.

No, I'm familiar with those, and thought that ranches would fall under "private/secure campus".

As far as roads changing type, I think if we insert the phrase "long stretches" in the rules (guidelines?) We can allow for changing types. I don't like seeing patchworks, but I do like seeing long stretches of road type reflected in the color coding.

As long as we don't define "long stretches" with a specific number, since there's bound to be an exception.
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