[USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby CrackedLCD » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:33 am

txemt wrote:I think a LOT of these are imported from the base map. I've deleted a TON of them that have "Admin" as the last editor with an edit date of 2009, meaning they've been imported from the basemap.


There's a ton of these that were imported from the base map in the next county over from me, and I've taken to deleting them when they lead to too much clutter or are inaccurate. But I've found that I have no real choice but to map parking lot roads in fast food places from time to time because they generate a crapload of error reports.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:48 pm

jemay wrote:
2.6 Stadium / Sports Facility - Mapped as building shape, adjacent parking lots are mapped using Parking Lot Roads.

This one seems to contradicts most of the other items, in regards to "including parking lot(s) in one landmark" and "at the fence line".

Ditto.

Actually it was previously explained elsewhere that the Stadiums just look cooler when mapped to the shape. But I don't buy on that argument one bit, especially when it totally contravenes every other large facility landmark instruction. I do accept that if a road (not a parking road but an actual street) cuts between a stadium parking lot and the stadium, that road should not be crossed by the land mark.

I'm still not a big fan of marking Fire depts, city offices or DMV offices (why them and not other commonly visited gov offices like the Dept of Workforce Services). But I can't seem to effectively define my opposition in words (other than for the DMV) so I'll just leave it that I'm not a big fan of the concept.

On hospitals/clinics, I think we need to discuss what level is allowed. Do we accept all medical facilities? Is it limited to just Hospitals? Or are Insta-care's allowed/accepted. I think this field needs a bit more clarification because I don't think we want every Dr's Office marked, but can see the need for more than just Hospitals, particularly with Insta-care/remote ER type facilities.

Also I have a couple larger military bases that are marked with landmarks because there are not always road segments to be named at the full reaches of the bases, and there are areas where the border between the neighboring cities and base zig and zag a bit leaving the city layer polygon size and shape to be defined inaccurately. By using a Landmark it allows us to set the exact boundaries.

I have made landmarks with the Danger Zone code for some areas that were just put off limits to target shooting this last year because idiots were not checking their backstop and were firing towards some remote farm houses. The BLM declared the no shooting zones and I mapped them in with the Danger Zone type.

A suggestion for the Interchange landmarks, such landmarks don't always show up in the client (I've verified this) and for a couple remote interchanges I put the exit number (ex: Exit 95) in the city label for the overpass segment (and that segment only). I did it as an experiment and I like how it looked on the client. It's just a suggestion, it would only work for rural areas on interchanges that were not adjacent to a city or connected to a State or US hwy. I like the change on the Religious Site verbiage, allowing for slightly more liberal use than the prior wording which was basically "Unless the Vatican or something similar moves to the US, NO." The wording now suggested does allow for locally significant locations such as a unique historical Hindu Temple or a Hare Krishna Temple or an LDS Temple (very significant in Utah, and in many other states as well.) But maintains the instruction that regular houses of worship are not to be mapped.

And I've gone with having my Utah editors mark Golf Courses as Parks to denote them with green. Others disagree with marking golf courses because many are private, but at least around where I am most are actually publicly owned and most people really can't tell the difference. I and at least a couple of my local editors like the park category because of the way they appear green on the client. And no I don't golf so it's not an interest in being able to plan my next 9 or 18 holes.

Water: I've allowed one editor who wanted to landmark every drop of water on the map to put in a major river that is not appearing on the water layer for much of it's length as it runs through our most populous valley. But after spending much time deleting many, many, many water landmarks I'm not opposed to making this rule a blanket NO until the water layer issue is worked out with Waze.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:39 pm

Insta-cares also serve the same public service as Hospitals, i.e. somewhere to go when you get hurt. As I said, this needs discussion. And Hospitals are also (at least where I live) all run by private corporations, how are we not advertising for them?
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:18 am

Thanks for catching that Andy, that's what I thought the rule was on small lots. But Cracked had the Wiki linked so I didn't correct him.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:59 am

timl2k12 wrote:
jasonh300 wrote:Well, I can knock out a portion of vectorspace's objections in one easy sentence: Private businesses are not to be mapped because Waze's business model is to sell advertising to businesses that want to be mapped.

This is not a matter for debate.


Is that a quote from Waze TOS? How do you know waze's business model doesn't allow businesses and such to be mapped? Perhaps they have the infrastructure there for future plans that they feel don't conflict with their business model. Let Waze worry about their business model. We editors do not work for or get paid by waze. If they don't want businesses being mapped then they need to put it in their terms of service, or at least remove the option. Editors are users too, not employees of waze. So the matter is very much up for debate, until waze intervenes and provides enforceable guidelines. If it really is against their business model to landmark businesses why would they have the option?

While not in the TOS, please note that the Waze Champs actually do have the ability to communicate directly with Waze staff. So when a Champ makes a point as strongly as Jason did, it's because there is backbone behind it. On the point of not advertising there is very little wiggle. We love Waze, it's why we spend so much time editing trying to make it better and better. If Waze the company can't make a profit, it will go away and Waze the app would soon belong to Google (maybe not so bad) or Apple (no thanks). Don't get me wrong I'll argue what should be landmarked at the drop of a hat. I'm a big part of the reason this thread came about. I don't totally agree with all the suggestions as noted in my prior posts in this thread, but on why so many locations should not be mapped the not advertising is a big one that I totally support.

One other consideration vectorspace has not made. What happens when all those little landmarks start pressing together? They turn into one big blob of landmark, with names floating seemingly at random. Those of us who have edited for a while have seen areas where nearly everything is/was marked as you think it should be, and the landmarks are useless. In the client at maximum zoom you can't even tell where one landmark ends and the next begins, you can't tell what that business name there belongs too. It's simply useless and clutters the map enough to start making it difficult to find the names of the roads. Thus less is better.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:13 am

Okay but take a look at the when joined and post count of those of us saying NO. And compare it to yours. We are speaking from experience. I've seen areas like I described, I've looked at them in the client and they are worse than a map with no landmarks at all.

I've only been doing this for just over a year and I still feel myself a newbie compared to Jason, Bgoddette, Mapcat or Alan of the Berg. Andy's a Waze Champ but otherwise he's got the same experience level as I do, I beat him into Wazeland by three days.

We the users have no business marking any businesses. What seems like a good idea may actually be one, until it costs Waze the big advertising contract needed to keep the company and thus the app alive.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby Daknife » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:13 am

I have no ties to the company at all. I do consider myself a virtual shareholder in that I like what they offer and have put thousands of hours into making the maps better. But I get and deserve no monetary remuneration for my time and efforts. My purpose for posting as I did is that I recognize that if Waze can't remain profitable, then Waze goes away.

But you are trying to dance away from my point. You claimed so much knowledge or investment yet you've been involved with Waze just over a month. You haven't seen how the maps have improved and evolved over time. I've only seen it for just over a year. You are disparaging the positions explained by long time editors, many of whom have met repeatedly with Waze staff and discussed the goals plans and intentions of Waze directly with the staff and even with the founder.

So when Jason says something is not up for discussion that is fact, not up for debate.

Here it is again. It is from Waze, via their appointed Champs.
Jasonh300 stated
Well, I can knock out a portion of vectorspace's objections in one easy sentence: Private businesses are not to be mapped because Waze's business model is to sell advertising to businesses that want to be mapped.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby dmiller1984 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:32 pm

I agree that hospitals with 24-hour care is a good rule for mapping hospitals. It goes along with the reason for mapping police and fire departments in that it is a place you can get help if you're in trouble.

2.10 Camp site / RV Park - Not Mapped. Handled by POI Search.


I mentioned this in the original thread, but I think it got overlooked in the scope of a larger discussion. What about mapping camp sites like we do beaches by marking them as parks? Camp sites are many times part of a park anyway and you can't always rely on a POI search to find a campsite.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby jasonh300 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:30 pm

jemay wrote:
2.6 Stadium / Sports Facility - Mapped as building shape, adjacent parking lots are mapped using Parking Lot Roads.

This one seems to contradicts most of the other items, in regards to "including parking lot(s) in one landmark" and "at the fence line".


Because the shape of a stadium is recognizable, especially when it's round.
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Re: [USA] Landmark Guidelines - Request for Comments

Postby jasonh300 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:37 pm

daknife wrote:On hospitals/clinics, I think we need to discuss what level is allowed. Do we accept all medical facilities? Is it limited to just Hospitals? Or are Insta-care's allowed/accepted. I think this field needs a bit more clarification because I don't think we want every Dr's Office marked, but can see the need for more than just Hospitals, particularly with Insta-care/remote ER type facilities.


Think Hospitals as a public service. There's probably an official list somewhere. I'll see if I can find something.

Clinics, doctor's offices, standalone urgent cares, etc. are private businesses for whom we shouldn't be providing free advertising.
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