Service Road affects routing?

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Service Road affects routing?

Postby AggieJM » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:21 pm

I've noticed an odd routing behavior, but I'm not sure if I'm seeing the right cause.

If you're on the far north side of Dallas, TX (Frisco) and heading to a destination south of Dallas on I-35E, the fastest route is to take the Dallas North Tollway south to I-35E in downtown. At the end of the DNT, there is a ramp that you leave the DNT that puts you onto the I-35E service road, then a few feet later you take the ramp onto I-35E. Service road segment highlighted in this permalink:

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=3&lat ... s=49823859

Whenever I route through here, Waze will always suggest DNT to I-635 west, to I-35E south. But as I drive down the tollway and get within a few miles of I-635, the routing will update to skip I-635 and use DNT all the way into downtown.

Is this cause by the longer route opting to not use the Service Road, then as I get further down the DNT, the route is shorter and the Service Road becomes an option? Or is there something else that I should be looking for?
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby CBenson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:10 pm

jasonh300 wrote:[So did we ever actually try setting it as Primary Street?

Yes the entire "service road" was changed to primary street type. That did not solve the problem.
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=7&lat ... s=49823859
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby jasonh300 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:06 pm

bgodette wrote:
jasonh300 wrote:Yup. Ramp or highway type. If it's a long route and it doesn't fall into the first or last 10 km of the trip, Waze will see it as if it's completely disconnected. That's where the Primary Streets and Streets get pruned from the options.
O Rly? The thread. That route wouldn't work if that were the case.


Does that route qualify as a "long route"? It's 106 km on the route that uses the Primary Street. According to the info in cbenson's post, it does and should not be possible. Obviously that nanorep info is wrong...nothing new there, but more wrong than we ever thought it was.

I'm getting lost now...To recap what I've observed, the problem was originally that it was avoiding the Service Road segment. I mistakenly said that the Service Road was treated as a Primary Street...but was corrected in that it is treated like a regular Street. So did we ever actually try setting it as Primary Street? Obviously if the Service Road (not even mentioned in cbenson's table) is treated as a Street, it would make this route not work on a long route.

I just tried to look at it on the map again, but it seems that the original segment ID no longer exists and the permalink isn't centered on it.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby CBenson » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:54 am

Yeah, I agree that waze has not given consistent information on what the radius for pruning primary streets is. Nano rep gives the following if I type in penalties:
Long Distances:
• 0-15 km - All road types are allows for routing.
• 15-20 km - All road types except Streets.
• 20-30 km - All road types except Streets and Primary streets.
• 30-200 km - Only Minor, Major, and Freeways.
• more than 200 km - only Freeways.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby bgodette » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:39 am

jasonh300 wrote:Yup. Ramp or highway type. If it's a long route and it doesn't fall into the first or last 10 km of the trip, Waze will see it as if it's completely disconnected. That's where the Primary Streets and Streets get pruned from the options.
O Rly? The thread. That route wouldn't work if that were the case.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby CBenson » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:32 pm

jasonh300 wrote:1) Now that I'm thinking about it, it may cause a problem. Ramps are programmed to prevent highway to highway routing...off a highway and then back onto the same highway. If the name/city of the street on both sides of the Ramp segment is the same, it may prevent local routing. You may need to just put a section of Minor Highway in there.

I'm not objecting to using a Minor Highway segment rather than a ramp, either should work. But I don't think this should be a concern. First as AggieJM mentions the names are not the same: the routing is broken going from the "Dallas North Tollway S" to "I-35E S." Second, I do not believe off/on prevention algorithm is limited just to ramps. Certainly on the world server it has been recently shown that waze will provide very odd recalculated routes to turn you around if you miss a freeway exit in areas that do not include the cardinal direction in the names of freeways. I believe that waze confirmed that this was the result of the off/on avoidance routine. As the freeway had the same name in both directions, waze avoided just getting off and routing back the other direction. This was true even where part of the "U-turn" was on the non-ramp segments over the bridge over the freeway.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby AggieJM » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:29 pm

I changed that segment to a ramp. The ramp coming from the DNT and the ramp going to I-35E S have different names, so I don't think this will be an issue. I'll give it a couple of days to update, then I'll check the routing through the client for the trip that usually gives me issues.

If it all looks good, I'll get a Level 5 to lock that segment.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:19 pm

AggieJM wrote:The two concerns I had with swapping that to ramp:

1) Will it affect routing in that local area where you are using the segments of the frontage road before and after the piece updated to ramp?

2) Keeping other editors from "fixing" that segment to make it line up with the other segments of the frontage.

I can make the change if neither of these are a problem.


1) Now that I'm thinking about it, it may cause a problem. Ramps are programmed to prevent highway to highway routing...off a highway and then back onto the same highway. If the name/city of the street on both sides of the Ramp segment is the same, it may prevent local routing. You may need to just put a section of Minor Highway in there.

If it's currently not working, you're not going to make it any worse by sticking a ramp in there and waiting a few days for another update.

2) Whatever you figure out that works, you need to get a level 5 lock put onto it...but only after you're 100% sure it's working properly. And then you'll still have to keep an eye on it for a while to be safe.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby CBenson » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:03 pm

AggieJM wrote:The two concerns I had with swapping that to ramp:

1) Will it affect routing in that local area where you are using the segments of the frontage road before and after the piece updated to ramp?

I can't say it won't affect the local routing at all. There is likely some kind of transition penalty for going from the primary street to the ramp and back. But the change should not eliminate any local routes from consideration. Any effect, thus, should be minor, certainly compared to broken Interstate to Interstate routing that you are experiencing.

AggieJM wrote:2) Keeping other editors from "fixing" that segment to make it line up with the other segments of the frontage.

That's always a concern. I'm regularly fixing highway to highway connections to eliminate street types.
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Re: Service Road affects routing?

Postby AggieJM » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:15 pm

The two concerns I had with swapping that to ramp:

1) Will it affect routing in that local area where you are using the segments of the frontage road before and after the piece updated to ramp?

2) Keeping other editors from "fixing" that segment to make it line up with the other segments of the frontage.

I can make the change if neither of these are a problem.
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