Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

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Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby zCougar » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:28 pm

Hi,

I have found already three routes where navigation gives me very long route instead of direct one and only common thing is that in all cases routing avoids street intersection with parking lot road. Is this something intentional. I hope not.

For instance look at http://world.waze.com/cartouche/?zoom=4 ... FFFFFFTTTT

There is small one way parking road loop and if you select street between it you can see that everyting is well connected:
Image

When asking direction from server from one side of parking lot road to another side, you get such route:
Image

I can easily show more examples but this one should be already very clear. There are no problems with segment direction, allowed turns or recorded speeds. It is clearly visible that route from Waze is absolutely wrong one.

I found this issue because I always use navigation with shortest route option when driving any other roads than my daily one and only after I know that shortest is ok (all junctions and turns and everythig fixed), then I switch to fastest route (there is no enough speed data available anyway at the beginning).

Basically all gas stations are connected with streets using parking lot roads and there are others. Also small roads between flats which are not allowed to pass but can be used to reach these locations are also marked ad parking lot roads right now. Is it a wrong type of road?

Any ideas? I have also sent one similar issue to Waze email but then I didn't understand it. I haven't got any answer but now I found this common thing and maybe somebody else has the same problems

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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby RallyChris » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:02 pm

Your images aren't working, but I could believe that there is a high penalty for turning onto a parking lot road, to avoid routing trying to shortcut across them when the destination is not in that parking lot.

I've seen behavior where routing will make me go around the block on public streets even though their is a shorter path through the parking lot. In this case, the destination is one parking lot segment from the "suggested" route, but three parking lot segments from the "best" route. My suspicion is that since my destination is not on the first parking lot road, once the higher penalties are put in place, the public road is preferred.
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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby zCougar » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:14 pm

Strange. Is here any place where pictures should be uploaded. I put them on my own server which is accessible from everywhere usually..

This is not a case here. This is one street with junction(s) between where parking lot roads are connected. The case you describe is exactly what I understand how it should work. And this is the reason I use parking lot roads for roads that should not be used between navigation but only in case destination is there.

In my case parking lot road is connected with totally straight street and I never get route over this junction. If I choose origin and destination both on different side of this junction then route will give a long direction using all other roads (and actually looking very good route) instead of just going from one segment to another connected segment.

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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby RallyChris » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:48 pm

Oh... it's just my proxy server. Weird complaint about authentication. Oh well... pulled it up on a non-proxied connection.

It looks like based on process of elimination, is that it is the southern node of the parking lot loop that is causing the issue. Without having the route diagnostic tools that support has, can't say much more. It all looks okay. Might try removing the node, and putting a new one in.
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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby zCougar » Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:25 pm

I haven't did any changes for this and last edits of most segments were moths ago. Only one is changed 3 weeks ago. I have another place similar where I did changes around week ago, waited as long it went to live map and tested. Result is the same.Only workaround I know right now is to put small street segment before starting with parking lot road but I don't think it is a solution. Just additional and unnecessary data for server and clients.

If direction is asked between two junctions where parking lot roads are connected and there are no other connections (one single segment for example), then route line will look like this:

----*----1=====2====*---- (- is road, * is junction, 1 and 2 are origin and destination and = is blue route)

It is hard to try via web because parking lot roads are not visible even with the greatest zoom level but if you look Cartouche map first and then switch to live map then you can estimate such locations.

There is definitely some issue with junctions where parking lot road is connected..

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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby waynemcdougall » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:37 pm

We can safely assume that parking lot road intersections in general do not cause problems because in the vast majority of cases they work perfectly as expected. We should assume there is something wrong with this intersection.

And indeed there is. Note that I am not blaming the map editor. I also have theories as to why this has manifested now. But here is not the place for my speculations. But I can offer a solution that will fix it now, and stop it ever happening again here, or at other intersections.

In Cartouche if you click on the parking lot road and look at the connectivity, you'll see the green lines marking where people can travel to, when leaving the one way road. You will see they can turn north or south into Ehitajate tee

But now click on that northern segment of Ehitajate tee - just north of the parking lot exit - the short segment. Look for the brown lines that show the source roads. The parking lot road is not included.

How to fix: Using Cartouche, choose Add new junction, and tick "enable all turns". Click on the parking lot exit junction where it meets Ehitajate tee. In a few days when the Live Map updates, you will be able to route through there.

This happens when people manually connect roads, rather than adding junctions with "enable all turns". That, combined with changes in directionality (making roads one way, and changing their direction), and possibly also people driving along them, leads to bad things happening. Manually connecting roads should be avoided wherever possible. Enable all turns, and then apply turn restrictions.

You are thinking, it should work either way. You are right. It should. My observation is that it causes problems. Sad.

Readd the junction in, and let us know how it goes.
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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby zCougar » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:37 am

Yes, if I look connectivity of Ehitajate tee north and south segments these these are ok. Connectivity is also ok if I select parking lot road. If I select Ehitajate tee segment between parking lot roads then indeed it shows where I can go but it does not show that I can come from parking lot too.

What I did' is that I disconnected parking lot loop from street, removed these junctions, then crossed parking lot road to the street and added junctions again. And this gave exactly the same result when looking connectivity.

Also there happened strange things when I removed junctions. When I removed junction in north then this middle segment itself also disappeared. Then I moved south segment up and just connected roads by order of selection (don't remember order) and if it usually connects segments to one without needing junction then in this case it also connected but when looking connectivity it shows it like two roads and one way connectivity even missing. And there was no junction where to enable all turns..

Anyway, after that everything was still the same. Then I just added additional junction to parking lot road and all connections went okay.

Could it be a problem of "loop"? I actually remember that in one webinar it was mentioned that to connect two segments to parallel it needed additional junction.

This wasn't edited by me and I didn't look it carefully enough. But there are other locations where such loops does not exist and just normal two-way parking lot road is connected to main street. I'll wait for next live map update and if these problems still exist then I'll show them here too. In one case all segments are two-way and connectivity looks okay for all segments but waze answered that this is fixed now (don't know what they did). Another one is much more complex where many turn restrictions exist and one was even missing so I just changed it and now need to wait.

Does routing calculation always use the data from the same moment that live map does?

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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby waynemcdougall » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:18 am

zCougar wrote:Does routing calculation always use the data from the same moment that live map does?


No, it takes about 1-2 days before routing uses everything new in the Livemap. Or that's what I think based on observation.

Your description of the segment missing when you remove the junction... my observation is this happens when two one way roads are connected by junctions, and then made two way roads afterwards. That would make sense with the strange connectivity you saw. There seems to be a hangover effect. I'm sure you have fixed it now.

Can I just ask how you added the junctions. You should have just been able to to select Add a junction, click on "enable all turns" and click on the existing junction to the south. Did you do that? Did you enable all turns?

Oh, and one more thing to remember. Cartouche caches the connectivity colouring, so even after you change it, it will show the old connectivity. You can force a refresh by changing the zoom level up or down one. If you didn't do that, it may have been fixed without you noticing.
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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby zCougar » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:13 am

Should I add new junction top of existing? So far i have feeling that then there will be two junctions very close to each other and hard to remove one. I have fixed several map errors like that before where only solution was to disconnect all segments an then remove junctions too.

Your observation regarding connecting one way roads could be true. This is exactly what I feel too. Most of streets here are built from one way tracks. Sometimes junctions already exist and I just remove all turn restrictions, sometimes there is no junction and segments need to extended over other streets to add junctions. Yes, "enable all turns" is always enabled and also when I change segment direction I always select junctions on both ends and remove all turn restrictions (would be cool if more than one junction can be selected and then do the same operation for all of them in one turn).

I'm not 100% sure I refreshed Cartouche but I know this limitation. I guess it was related with these one way roads converted to two-way later but can't be sure. It wasn't waze webinar but another video "Waze editing #2 - loops and more intersection connections" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1vc9CZGTrY)where remark was made that add additional junction when two segments are connected to the same junctions but this based on old version of Cartouche.

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Re: Possible bug with intersections with parking lot roads

Postby waynemcdougall » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:52 pm

zCougar wrote:Should I add new junction top of existing? So far i have feeling that then there will be two junctions very close to each other and hard to remove one. I have fixed several map errors like that before where only solution was to disconnect all segments an then remove junctions too.


Yes definitely put a junction on top of the existing one. Cartouche tries to be clever and usually succeeds. When you place a junction it will look for neighbouring junctions and roads. It will replace the existing junctions (more than one) and connect the roads. If a little segment of road goes past the junction, it will be cut off.

How far away Cartouche looks for nearby junctions and roads depends on your zoom level. The close you zoom in, the closer you can place junctions to each other, and to roads, without them connecting. The mid zoom level of 100m/200ft is best for normal work, but you can zoom out to quickly fix up multiple junctions in a cluster with dangling roads, or zoom in for close work around complex intersections.
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