WeeeZer14 wrote: [*]same as the road it is serving

• Follows wiki guidelines for at-grade connectors
• no routing penalty for street type changes
• does a short curved loop of asphalt with slow transit times that is mainly used by local traffic really deserve to be the same type as the main road?
• May look sloppy or confusing on the map

I disagree with the last two points here, especially the last point. Making jughandles stand out on the map should be a desired goal, so a user glancing at a map sees it coming and doesn't disregard it as an insignificant local street.

I can see a case for using the ramp type very sparingly for certain at-grade connectors, but I do agree that it might give inexperienced editors the wrong idea.

If the cross street is a primary street, then the standard at-grade connector rule says to use primary street for the connector, regardless of the main road type. Would that primary street fork approaching the connector say "exit right" or "keep right"? With jughandle connectors, that really needs to say "exit right" - something that can only be consistently produced by using ramps, if I understand correctly.

As far as jughandles are concerned, this latest development would, to me, support keeping the ramp type, since an "exit" TTS instruction is undoubtedly more appropriate when approaching one regardless of what type of road it connects to or from.

Ok, so now that we're all here, let me summarize the 3 things that separate jughandles from regular at-grade connectors as currently described in the Wiki - at least the way they're built in New Jersey:

• Jughandles have to connect a minor highway or better at at least one end.
• Jughandles typically have some sort of green sign (GS) at their approach(es). Often they are big with a lot of text
• Jughandles are usually set back far enough from the actual junction to be capable of servicing an overpass junction, had an overpass actually been built, even though that actual junction is just an at-grade traffic signal.

Over the last 6 months that I've been using Waze all over central NJ, with lots and lots of these jughandles configured as ramps, and in all kinds of traffic conditions, I have never once seen Waze choose an illegal left (or right) turn instead of a nearby ramp jughandle. Further, the ramp type suppresses name text from appearing on the map, which greatly improves the map presentation at such intersections.

In all fairness, WeeeZer14 did include an exception in the wiki's discussion of at-grade connectors, but in my experience there seems to be too much emphasis on the presence of an actual exit number as being the key criteria for the exception. This has become a major point of contention, since the overwhelming majority of New Jersey's jughandles, though having some sort of green sign, do not have an exit number. Maybe we just need to update that exception clause to emphasize the presence of a green sign as the key criteria to the exception, as opposed to a specific exit number?

While we're exploring this topic, I would also wonder if the setback distance of these connectors has an impact in causing potential routing errors with the ramp type.

For example, jughandles tend to be set back from the intersection at least a few hundred feet - though most of them are further. Regardless of the type of sign (BGS, LGS, or white sign only (WSO?)), when ramps are used with these connectors that are farther set back, I have not noticed any kind of routing problems.

The simple right-turn bypass connectors, however, typically appear much closer to the actual intersection itself, often have no green sign (NGS?). I haven't actually seen these cause any problems when incorrectly configured as ramps, but is it possible that it would have a higher chance of misrouting when these are set to ramps because they are that much closer to the actual junction?

Also, I'm not sure it makes sense to use a ramp type, ever, when both ends of the connector meet with primary street types, or if both ends of the connector meet with street types. If we do this, the TTS will give an "exit" instruction, which goes against the "keep right" language that the TTS uses for streets and primary streets. Also, streets and primary streets rarely ever have a BGS, and if we find one that does, that would, to me at least, make it a candidate for a minor highway.

Sleep is overrated. And only in New Jersey does a 3 mile stretch of highway (US-22 in Union and Springfield) get its own unique classification...

I would agree that the key determination is the presence of a BGS. That's the primary reason for deviating from the Wiki and using a ramp: to suppress its long text.

Maybe your Wiki text should be updated to emphasize that the exception counts where any kinds of exit sign (BGS) is present, as opposed to the way it is now, where it seems to emphasize having an actual exit number to count for this exception?

George,
You remember this, don't you?
We were talking about it.
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-74.29 ... 9,31953208

Good one. There's a royal hot mess if I've ever seen one...

These should probably be handled the same way the dedicated U Turns on Rte 9...

@WeeeZer14 - God, is that like the Parkway, somewhere down the shore maybe? I know there's some crazy screwy interchanges down that way...

orbitc wrote:Is this Bold now???
Wazing the Garden State... one jughandle at a time.

I've always had that signature in bold. Ironic, isn't it? New Jersey seems to be all about jughandles and death-trap major highway traffic circles with totally unpredictable right-of-way patterns...

I agree about the simple right-turn connectors being the lesser of the 2 road types they connect. How to get newbie editors/AMs to understand how that's different from a signed jughandle though...

Here's another case, in Middletown this time, where both of the selected segments will produce a "exit right at Main St" prompt, yet they go in different directions. Actually, the first one will produce a "keep to the right at Main St" since it's a primary street type (unless there's a hidden micro dogleg buried in there). But in any case, the two turns are about 100 ft apart and produce an indistinguishable difference in instruction - I can't tell which one it wants me to turn at just from the voice prompt. In fact, approaching this intersection, I might not even know there's more than one possible place to go "right at Main St"

I haven't done it here (yet) but in a few other places I've seen something like this, I've put "to Main St / U and Left Turns" into the second turn to prompt the driver to look for the turn that also has the white U and Left Turns sign. Of course, the length of that name would warrant the ramp type...