Landmark - Best Practices US

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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby doctorkb » Tue May 28, 2013 12:49 am

daknife wrote:
doctorkb wrote:One thing we're also leaving out... people can get navigation from multiple sources. They could have instructions from their friend on how to get to place X -- having the same data points (which may include "turn left at the church" or "go past the McDonald's") aids the user significantly, even if those instructions aren't read aloud or displayed in text form on the screen.
If they are asking a person for directions they won't be relying on a GPS. The GPS won't know about the red barn with the faded tobacco ad, or the Oak tree painted red white and blue, or the Smiths farm, or the church (not all churchs are easily recognized as churches and don't always show up on paper maps anyway.) Local landmark navigation? Talk to Cousin Larry. Address based GPS navigation? landmarks are not needed just turn when it tells you to turn. We rely on GPS to get away from having to ask for such directions. If you want to combine them, well when told to turn left at the little white church, and the GPS tells you to turn left and there is a little white church there, then you know it's okay to turn.


Smart people don't rely on a single source for navigation, especially in areas they don't know.

When stupid people do rely on one source, they end up in the middle of the Australian outback... or worse.

Cousin Larry gives you some good data... "if you pass the red house with the white fence, you've gone too far"... Google gives you some good data... "turn left on 123 St".

Why is there such a problem with Waze giving both?

I'm not suggesting every little thing be marked... I've deleted my fair share of parking lot landmarks.

But really... unless there's a church on two out of every four corners for 10 blocks, what's the harm in listing them?

Same with the cemeteries?

Sometimes it's just plain interesting. And I'd certainly prefer to know about the cemetery I'm driving next to, than where the nearest Ramada is, with an ugly call-out to point it out.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby TruckOttr » Tue May 28, 2013 1:30 am

doctorkb wrote:Cousin Larry gives you some good data... "if you pass the red house with the white fence, you've gone too far"... Google gives you some good data... "turn left on 123 St".

Why is there such a problem with Waze giving both?

I'm not suggesting every little thing be marked... I've deleted my fair share of parking lot landmarks.

But really... unless there's a church on two out of every four corners for 10 blocks, what's the harm in listing them?

Same with the cemeteries?

Sometimes it's just plain interesting. And I'd certainly prefer to know about the cemetery I'm driving next to, than where the nearest Ramada is, with an ugly call-out to point it out.


Because those change and (most importantly) editors change. In less traveled and less monitored areas, there are a lot of casual editors who edit a few times and then disappear forever. if each editor decided to add what was important for them to get from Point A to Point B, we'll have a crazyquilt of landmarks with no contextual knowledge of why they were put there / modified after a few years.

Editors replicate what they see. If they see a landmark for "Bill Smith's Farm" they'll add another landmark for "Jane's Barbershop", etc.

And also, along with "what's important to you may not be important to someone else" there's also "what's interesting to you may not be interesting to someone else". If editors added everything that they were interested in, we would have a mess.

Exhibit A: https://www.waze.com/editor/#?zoom=2&lat=38.2537&lon=-121.50849&layers=BFTFFTTTTTTTFTTTTTFTTTFTT&landmarks=667175
Last edited by TruckOttr on Tue May 28, 2013 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby doctorkb » Tue May 28, 2013 1:34 am

Pretty sure cemeteries don't move.

And I don't remember the last time I heard of a Wal-mart closing.

And while churches move, that happens about as often as a street changes names.

So... Again, what's the deal?

I'm not suggesting we need to landmark every little thing.. But the rules proposed are overly arbitrary.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby HuckD » Tue May 28, 2013 1:42 am

daknife wrote:...Thus the need for the national standards to be finalized and published back into the wiki...


This is the only thing that will settle this debate!
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby ncc1701v » Tue May 28, 2013 12:03 pm

russblau wrote:Second, given what I understand to be the purpose of landmarks, many of these guidelines make no sense. Why is the "historical importance" of a cemetery of any value in deciding whether it is useful to drivers seeking to orient themselves on the road network? Why are parks or schools, which may be located far off a road, more useful for navigation than a store or office building? A McDonald's at a major intersection may be a more useful landmark than a church that is at the end of a long dead-end street and not visible from any other road. Again, what's the reason for these distinctions?

Landmarks are not just orientation aids, they can be destinations in themselves. When I was on Oahu as a tourist, there were several cases every day where all I knew was the name of a particular park, but I had no idea how to get an address, or even street, for it. I was very grateful that the people there had taken the trouble to map them. The same is true for other "historically significant" places - they are often destinations, and people need to be able to find them without street addresses.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby jasonh300 » Tue May 28, 2013 12:12 pm

Landmarks are not necessary to be able to search for and navigate to a particular park. In fact, prior to about three weeks ago, a landmark wouldn't even come up in a search.


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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby vectorspace » Tue May 28, 2013 12:15 pm

ncc1701v wrote:Landmarks are not just orientation aids, they can be destinations in themselves. When I was on Oahu as a tourist, there were several cases every day where all I knew was the name of a particular park, but I had no idea how to get an address, or even street, for it. I was very grateful that the people there had taken the trouble to map them. The same is true for other "historically significant" places - they are often destinations, and people need to be able to find them without street addresses.


Good ideas. I added them to my prior post list in case it was useful.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby skbun » Tue May 28, 2013 12:29 pm

jasonh300 wrote:
skbun wrote:
On a related note, did Waze fix 'the bug' where newly added stations can't populate price data?


Drawing in a gas station that isn't in the database doesn't do anything but create a useless landmark. I don't know if this is a bug. I think the missing gas stations have to be added from the back end.


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I found the thing I was looking for, but it doesn't answer the actual question of progress made toward fixing this:

viewtopic.php?p=418161#p418161

Adding stations: Stations which are added to Waze as a new landmark, will not appear in app search results or be updatable until Waze implements some new code and update process on the server side. Go ahead and add stations which do not appear and for which you cannot find an imported station. They will be live in the app once Waze makes their code changes.


This was said about six weeks ago; no word yet though that I've seen.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby PhantomSoul » Tue May 28, 2013 4:32 pm

What's the relationship between landmarks and POI's? I thought destination searches were done based on addresses or POI's, a separate database from landmarks. Are all landmarks POI's? Just some, perhaps? Are all POI's landmarks? Again, just some, maybe? How can you tell the difference in a not-too-subjective way?
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue May 28, 2013 5:15 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:What's the relationship between landmarks and POI's?

In Waze? There is no relationship because there is no POI database. It's only landmarks, which are, often, being "abused" to input POIs. And "abused" only in the sense that we simply do not have another option.
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