Landmark - Best Practices US

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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby vectorspace » Tue May 28, 2013 7:24 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
PhantomSoul wrote:What's the relationship between landmarks and POI's?

In Waze? There is no relationship because there is no POI database. It's only landmarks, which are, often, being "abused" to input POIs. And "abused" only in the sense that we simply do not have another option.


That's interesting. I thought landmarks would be accessible in a POI search. I read or heard somewhere from Waze that they would like to expand their internal database of search information too. Jason's comment a few posts back in this topic seemed to indicate that landmark access in POI search started occurring about three weeks ago (unless I misunderstood). I thought I verified it worked by searching for some of my landmarks (BIA was one when I went there for a meeting).

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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby jasonh300 » Tue May 28, 2013 7:31 pm

vectorspace wrote:That's interesting. I thought landmarks would be accessible in a POI search. I read or heard somewhere from Waze that they would like to expand their internal database of search information too. Jason's comment a few posts back in this topic seemed to indicate that landmark access in POI search started occurring about three weeks ago (unless I misunderstood). I thought I verified it worked by searching for some of my landmarks (BIA was one when I went there for a meeting).

mike


It only seems to work with certain landmark types. It's being tested right now and we should have results by the end of the week.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby PhantomSoul » Tue May 28, 2013 8:10 pm

Shouldn't POI's be points instead of complex polygons, just from a database perspective? Complex polygons are OK for true landmarks, which, by definition, are supposed to be few and far between (i.e., you really should not see 6 different landmarks on a single block of road; most of those things would probably not be actual landmarks then). There's no limit, however, to how many POI's you could have in any given area though.

A landmark is, by definition, prominent. I think one of the things that has to be decided is whether we want to limit landmarks to physical prominence - in other words, does the thing, say, visually stand out from the vast majority of things around it, perhaps for at least a few miles? Or, do we also want to include objects of social prominence as well - like, for example, does everyone - at least in the local area - know where and what the thing is even though it may not stand out visually like a tall building or some other tall structure? This would potentially include businesses with well-known branding along the side of the road. The caveat here, I think, would be that social prominence is far more subjective than physical prominence, making the system more prone to clutter, but we should probably also not forget that the social aspects of Waze are one of its biggest features that make it stand out from all the other cell-phone navigation options out there.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue May 28, 2013 8:43 pm

vectorspace wrote:That's interesting. I thought landmarks would be accessible in a POI search. I read or heard somewhere from Waze that they would like to expand their internal database of search information too.

Some landmarks are searchable and "function" as a POI, but a POI is just that, a "point" and not a space. Waze doesn't have an actual POI database, but something that sort of functions like one.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby mapcat » Tue May 28, 2013 8:43 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:Shouldn't POI's be points instead of complex polygons, just from a database perspective?

Absolutely. But the devs haven't provided a way to create anything like this yet. I've asked; no response.

Complex polygons are OK for true landmarks, which, by definition, are supposed to be few and far between (i.e., you really should not see 6 different landmarks on a single block of road; most of those things would probably not be actual landmarks then). There's no limit, however, to how many POI's you could have in any given area though.

Very good point, and a good argument for not establishing any sort of "best practices" until it's been decided whether or not point symbols for POIs are forthcoming.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby bgodette » Tue May 28, 2013 9:24 pm

vectorspace wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
PhantomSoul wrote:What's the relationship between landmarks and POI's?

In Waze? There is no relationship because there is no POI database. It's only landmarks, which are, often, being "abused" to input POIs. And "abused" only in the sense that we simply do not have another option.


That's interesting. I thought landmarks would be accessible in a POI search. I read or heard somewhere from Waze that they would like to expand their internal database of search information too. Jason's comment a few posts back in this topic seemed to indicate that landmark access in POI search started occurring about three weeks ago (unless I misunderstood). I thought I verified it worked by searching for some of my landmarks (BIA was one when I went there for a meeting).

mike
Landmarks in search results worked for a long time (back when we were using 2.4 and well into 3.x), but then broke sometime around gas prices, and has recently returned to working again.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby jasonh300 » Tue May 28, 2013 9:51 pm

bgodette wrote:Landmarks in search results worked for a long time (back when we were using 2.4 and well into 3.x), but then broke sometime around gas prices, and has recently returned to working again.


Not entirely. There are landmarks I've placed specifically for the purpose of them coming up first in the search results (above the incorrect results from Bing). Some work, and some do not. I'm trying to work out which ones work and which do not and the reason why.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby jemay » Wed May 29, 2013 12:04 am

If you only searched for LAX, you would have been routed to the wrong entrance to LAX (closer to the coast), so I have created a small landmark https://www.waze.com/editor/#?%23%3F=&z ... rks=797743 and now when you search you get LAX, Los Angeles, CA in the top two items of the search. So I know the search is using landmark information in the client and map editor... Creating the landmark may have not been in the best practices but I was able to get the search to work and it returns the correct location.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby jasonh300 » Wed May 29, 2013 12:10 am

jemay wrote:If you only searched for LAX, you would have been routed to the wrong entrance to LAX (closer to the coast), so I have created a small landmark https://www.waze.com/editor/#?%23%3F=&z ... rks=797743 and now when you search you get LAX, Los Angeles, CA in the top two items of the search. So I know the search is using landmark information in the client and map editor... Creating the landmark may have not been in the best practices but I was able to get the search to work and it returns the correct location.


That's what I had to do for MSY. The landmark originally covered the entire property of the airport and as a result, was leading people coming from I-10 into a commercial/industrial area on the north side of the airport, where the streets dead-end at the edge of the airport property. The actual entrance to the airport is on the south side, a couple of miles away. I removed the name of the large landmark, drew a new one over the terminal building, and named that one.

Additionally, I drew some tiny landmarks for long term and short term parking and arrivals and departures, and now they lead you to the exact spots that take you to those places, and they show up at the top of the list.

These tiny landmarks would be better served by a POI point (which we don't have).

However, at this point, the only landmarks I've gotten to work in the search are the ones that have been set as Airport, hence the need for a test of all landmark types. I suspect that some are set to work with the search and some are not.
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Re: Landmark - Best Practices US

Postby vectorspace » Wed May 29, 2013 5:29 am

PhantomSoul wrote:Shouldn't POI's be points instead of complex polygons, just from a database perspective? ... A landmark is, by definition, prominent. I think one of the things that has to be decided is whether we want to limit landmarks to physical prominence - in other words, does the thing, say, visually stand out from the vast majority of things around it, perhaps for at least a few miles? ...


Thanks PhanomSoul for starting a great discussion and everyone for their response. This seems rather critical to editing, yet I would rather now wait for an answer from Waze to edit anything in this category if we know of certain solutions like the ones earlier in this post about small landmarks as having POI value at airports. I deleted the Albuquerque Sunport because of this reason and put it over the terminal building.

I like the distinction between visual and social prominence... where social might have to do with tourist attractions, churches, etc. There's also the difference between actual land-area of an item and the key entrance point. For instance, one may map a golf course as a means to show spatial reference in the map, obstacles, etc., but that doesn't lead you to the club house. So, if this large golf course object or objects is named the course name, will POI search bring you to the wrong place? Sure could, it seems from this discussion.

If landmarks are small enough, they don't show on the client and can be POI's right? There are now a bunch of these as new gas stations all over the map from the recent automated process.

This is a community based crowd-sourced application right? So why wait for a response from Waze if none comes. If you choose a standard and the map is edited with more data, won't the app follow? Just curious I guess. If we all used a certain sized small landmark as a POI and the right types or agree upon use of something like "other," wouldn't that suffice?
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