Post by top_gun_de
davipt wrote:I've always been curious how could waze have kept the cameras in Germany when everybody there knows it's illegal to even have software to inform about cameras installed. I almost had my scary moment when I had trapster installed and the police was quite curious about my old nokia device on the dashboard, but was lucky they were just hunting people drunk from the bars and didn't bother me.

As far as I can remember, for completeness, radar detection hardware is strictly forbidden, and software that announces cameras, fixed or mobile, are also forbidden in some countries - germany being the case - and over there, according to my rough german law translation and the comments from my friends, even having the software installed but not being open could be used against us. I may be wrong on this, I've been back to Portugal for two years now.

I'm mentioning this because there may be the case that removing the cameras from the map is not enough. There may be a need to even remove the camera report and maybe even the police report from the client, but I'm sure some native German can explain this better...
Yes, davipt, some natives might explain this better. In Germany, there is a law against having a working device in your vehicle during a drive, while the possession of such a device is entirely legal, likewise the manufacturing, distribution and sale of such hard- or software are compliant with the law. Every manufacturer of PNA-devices or navigation software offers this as a part of their software, either included for free or as a premium service.

There are even dedicated traffic warner applications in the official app-stores of Apple and Google.

There was separate legislation against the possession of radar receivers, but this was part of the regulations of the use of radio frequencies and is to my best knowledge obsolete since several years.

Moreover, the german law differentiates between a crime (like hitting someone in the face) ("Straftat") and an administrative offense (like exceeding your parking time) ("Ordnungswidrigkeit"), and the usage of such a device is just an offense, not a crime.

There has even been a discussion on federal level about this special law - several states pledged to lift the ban entirely, as it is completely useless - there has not even been one known case where someone was punished for this offense. Herr Ramsauer (Minister of transportation) has decided not yet to see the light on this matter.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
shirlig wrote:Hi guys,

We have just removed from the map all the speed cameras in Denmark, Switzerland and Germany due to it being illegal in these countries.
Shirli,

as the german coordinator, I write this on behalf of the german community, and I am sure that the communities from switzerland and denmark will agree:

Please, reconsider your decision. It is ill-advised on the legal side, and it will hurt Waze's position on the navigation market.

Every navigation software offers speed-cameras or comparable services. Navigon/Garmin decided to warn of "Unfallschwerpunkte" (locations with high potential of accident), and use the existence of a speed cam as an indicator for such locations.

Since every other app offers this service either free or as a premium service, I am sure that the removal of traffic cam warnings will hurt the product in the markets of germany, switzerland and denmark. These three countries are relatively wealthy with a population that is both attractive in direct sales revenue and advertising revenue.

Besides, Waze thrives on the community's effort to improve the maps and services. This surprising "fait-accompli" is a sure way to hurt the community and reduce its contribution.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
Shirli,

As usual, legal advice is available from a lawyer who has studied the national law of the respective countries.

However, if you have a look at the other manufacturers like TomTom, Garmin(Navigon), Alk et al, it is obvious that these companies have found legal advice that allows them to sell these services without violating he law.

The german law: Par. 23 Straßenverkehrsordnung:
(1b) Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, darf ein technisches Gerät nicht betreiben oder betriebsbereit mitführen, das dafür bestimmt ist, Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen anzuzeigen oder zu stören. Das gilt insbesondere für Geräte zur Störung oder Anzeige von Geschwindigkeitsmessungen (Radarwarn- oder Laserstörgeräte).

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__23.html

This is a server which hosts most german federal laws, paid by the government.

This is explicit in itself: Only a driver is not allowed to use devices which are dedicated to signal trafficsurveillance.

This is binding law for the driver of a car. Since this is not a crime but just a administrative offence, there is not even a punishment for cooperation, so Waze is not responsible for anything he driver does. According to german ADAC, the largest national motorist union, even a passenger would be allowed to use Waze in a car.

I can not comment on swiss or dansk law, but since other manufacturers have sold these services unharmed for years, the law must be similar.

Best regards,

Detlev



Gesendet von meinem iPad mit Tapatalk HD
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Post by top_gun_de
ccdmas wrote:
McFloyd wrote:
Art. 98a1 SVG

Warnungen vor Verkehrskontrollen


1 Mit Busse wird bestraft, wer:

a.
Geräte oder Vorrichtungen, die dazu bestimmt sind, die behördliche Kontrolle des Strassenverkehrs zu erschweren, zu stören oder unwirksam zu machen, einführt, anpreist, weitergibt, verkauft, sonst wie abgibt oder überlässt, in Fahrzeuge einbaut, darin mitführt, an ihnen befestigt oder in irgendeiner Form verwendet;


Waze hat leider keinen Spielraum... Vielleicht müssten wir halt eine Volsinitiative lancieren, die erlaubt, sich vor Radarfallen warnen zu lassen...
Yes, and there's the *big* difference compeared to germany. In switzerland, the device or application itself is illegal to start with, and it's forbidden by law to develop, sell, or make available such devices.

So I ask again: Waze, woukd you reconsider that decision for Germany *please*?

CU,
Massimo
Even in Switzerland, the law is not that unambiguous. We should restrict our counseling to our own law system. ;)
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Post by top_gun_de
pikifoo wrote: So why only Denmark, Germany and Switzerland? These three countries have a lower penetration rate in other countries, is that the reason? Delete the radar in a country such as France can make a great prejudice to the application.
As always, I can only interpret the German law - here, it's not forbidden to make and distribute such an application. We have them by the dozen, together with dedicated gps-appliances and radar-detectors. Building and selling them is as legal as it is to make and sell steak-knives. There is only law regarding the way you use them.

It is legal to use a steak-knive for eating steaks, and it is legal to use gps-based cam-detectors as a passenger or for off-board reference. However, nobody thinks about preemptively stopping the production of steak-knives, although there are illegal use-cases.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
davipt wrote:
wasserkatze11 wrote:As you can read here (in German) http://www.navi-magazin.de/grundlagen-w ... r-im-navi/
Gadgets who's only function it's to warn the user(s) are illegal. When the function is beside the functionality as a navigation-system (optional) then there was never an illegal action.
Thank you! I think this was the missing piece that made my German friends warn me to not even have Trapster installed in Germany, because Trapster is exclusively for radar detection.

On the other hand my rough German can't parse the whole text to reach a conclusion if a navigation software with a radar database is still legal or not. All I can read is that either the police ignores it (if you're stopped, I'm sure it's because you're at 200 at a 100 zone), or they will be nice and instead of destroying the iPhone, will just ask to remove the app.

So if the german layers can't give a concrete answer, how can Waze risk it?
Davipt, keep in mind that the law binds only the user of such a device, not the maker or software-producer, neither the distributor. It is perfectly legal to make and sell this kind of software, it is only illegal to use it as the driver of a vehicle. Since the usage is only an administrative offence, there is no law to punish a builder or vendor for conspiracy.

You as a driver must take care of your actions. Waze does not drive a car in Germany, so they do nothing illegal.

My favourite commercial gps application is Garmin Navigator, formerly from Navigon. They include their database even for free in the base application, and even enlighten the user by announcing "hazard areas" - although with exact locations and directions of radar equipment.

If Waze as the only navigation supplier refrain from making this service available to their users, they will deny their users a service which is quite relevant to lots of users. From my observations, waze will lose more users through this denial than they may ever hope to aquire through FB- or Google+-integration. I keep repeating my suggestion to Waze: You can really afford a good German lawyer to get qualified legal counsel on this matter.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
Shirli,

what is the planned way to discuss further proceedings - through the coordinators and champs of the respective countries, or via the forum?

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
Well, Waze should clarify two things:

1.) Whose legal issues are they after:
- Their own issues as a manufacturer
- The user's issues if being caught with an illegal device
- Being held liable by a customer who was caught with an illegal device

This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

2.) What is the further plan of action - will Waze discuss this with the community, with the champs and coordinators, or with a lawyer?

Best regards from a really pi..ed off local champ and coordinator who feels a little like firing up his Garmin Navigator - it's fully paid with map upgrades anyway, including stationary traffic cams.

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
top_gun_de wrote:Well, Waze should clarify two things:

1.) Whose legal issues are they after:
- Their own issues as a manufacturer
- The user's issues if being caught with an illegal device
- Being held liable by a customer who was caught with an illegal device

This is not yet clear, and I wish Shirli would explain this to us.

2.) What is the further plan of action - will Waze discuss this with the community, with the champs and coordinators, or with a lawyer?

Best regards from a really pi..ed off local champ and coordinator who feels a little like firing up his Garmin Navigator - it's fully paid with map upgrades anyway, including stationary traffic cams.

Detlev
Hi Shirli,

will there be an answer to these and the other questions in the thread? Your last posting is 4 days old.

We can discuss this in a smaller environment with the champs or coordinators of the affected countries, according to the organisational layout you posted in february. Just, don't keep the community out of the loop.

Best regards,

Detlev
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Post by top_gun_de
McFloyd wrote: In der Schweiz muss waze also gar nichts mehr abklären. Klar finde ich es auch schade, dass die Radarfallen gelöscht werden. Ich werde künftig einfach vermehrt vor vereisten Strassen warnen - auch im Sommer... 8-)
Danke, Du darfst dich setzen.

Translation: Thanks, you may sit down now.
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