Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby Aqualung812 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:15 pm

Very good advice, thank you jasonh300.

As to the second part about a wiki entry? It took a great deal of time to filter through all the pages of comments on this & even to find this thread.

I fear that others will not take the time to find this & make their own calls.
I noticed a UR requesting a road near a driveway, and a rank 5 is saying that Waze typically does not add driveways, even though this one is aprox 500m and serves two homes:
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lat ... TT&env=usa

I will discuss this with the editor first, but it sure would be nice to link back to a wiki entry saying what we do or do not do.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Bigbear3764 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:11 am

tpainter wrote:Would more specific guidance be to only map them if an error shows up? Basically no premature mapping.


Not for System Generated Errors for drive-thrus. We mark them solved and move on.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:17 pm

My 2 cents.

First,
mapcat wrote:- Don't map driveways just to make map problems go away.

I understand what's being said here, in that I understand that missing road MPs don't necessary mean there is a real problem with the map. That being said, I only map driveways where I can find some problem that is solved by their presence on the map. Which usually means 1) waze routing doesn't take you somewhere reasonably close to the entrance of the driveway without the driveway on the map and the routing is significantly improved with the driveway on the map, or 2) the driveway is complex enough that further directions are required after entering the driveway (e.g. the multiple residence served by a single driveway issue).

Second,
I think it would be very useful for standards regarding when to map driveways to be included in the wiki. However, I am also very opposed to any such standard implying that driveways that have been added to the map (as opposed to those from the base map) may be freely deleted because they don't meet the standards. No matter what standards we come up with, there will always be reasonable exceptions. Deletions should never be made without making an attempt to contact the creator.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:58 pm

Section Section 2D.43 of the MUTCD provides for other colors to indicate jurisdiction of the road, but there are not really different authorities for maintaining the roads in the five boroughs are there?

An alternative background color other than the normal guide sign color of green may be used for Street Name (D3-1 or D3-1a) signs where the highway agency determines this is necessary to assist road users in determining jurisdictional authority for roads.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:15 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
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kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Riamus wrote:It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road.

I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:54 pm

Riamus wrote:
I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.


As mentioned above, that makes exiting the mall not make any sense. If the road is named, then it makes sense to say to turn onto the road of that name than to say to turn onto some other road. If I'm going to the police station and the road leading to the parking lot is called Prison Way, the instruction should be to turn onto Prison Way and not to turn onto City Police Station. There isn't any reason why malls should be different.

Given a sign hanging from the traffic light that looks like this:
BollingerXing.png
BollingerXing.png (33.5 KiB) Viewed 496 times

I'm not seeing any difference in what the two of you are saying.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:59 pm

WeeeZer14 wrote:(warning, hack approaching) Split the mall entrance into two one-way segments. Road in named Bollinger Crossing, road out un-named.

I can't think of the exact situation right now, but I know I have come across places where I wish a road segment could have different names depending on your approach. (And I don't think I used the above hack -- I just accepted a less than ideal state.)

I've seen it done, like here.

I'll also note where the road naming at the Annapolis Mall has evolved to. There is a named ring road, but the rest of the parking lot roads are unnamed. Thus, when entering the mall you are given instructions to turn at "Annapolis Mall." When in leaving the mall, you are given instruction to turn at "Annapolis Mall" to get to the ring road, but then to turn at the street you exit to to leave the ring road. I don't think anyone planned this, but it works well enough that no one has changed it recently.
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Re: Driveways

Postby jasonh300 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:49 pm

AndyPoms wrote:Aside from the occasional MP, I've never had a problem at my local McWendyKing with Waze (it is not mapped). So, why should we consider changing something that is working? I know Ehud wants these things mapped, but unless they fix the display issues associated with parking lots (and the navigation issues that I've heard send people to the wrong exit) I don't think we should change anything (yet).


I've been mapping them as conservatively as possible when MPs come up, but I agree with AndyPoms (and have been pestering the developers for months) that the display of these roads needs to change if we're ever going to have functional parking lot navigation because adding in all these PLot roads makes the map look REALLY BAD.
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Re: Driveways

Postby jasonh300 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:39 pm

MUTCD calls for green signs with white lettering, but I don't think they'll withhold federal funding over city street signs. Although this is the reason why NYC got rid of their historic color coded street signs, which really sucks. Who cares what color the signs are, as long as there's some contrast between the background and lettering.
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