Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:17 pm

My 2 cents.

First,
mapcat wrote:- Don't map driveways just to make map problems go away.

I understand what's being said here, in that I understand that missing road MPs don't necessary mean there is a real problem with the map. That being said, I only map driveways where I can find some problem that is solved by their presence on the map. Which usually means 1) waze routing doesn't take you somewhere reasonably close to the entrance of the driveway without the driveway on the map and the routing is significantly improved with the driveway on the map, or 2) the driveway is complex enough that further directions are required after entering the driveway (e.g. the multiple residence served by a single driveway issue).

Second,
I think it would be very useful for standards regarding when to map driveways to be included in the wiki. However, I am also very opposed to any such standard implying that driveways that have been added to the map (as opposed to those from the base map) may be freely deleted because they don't meet the standards. No matter what standards we come up with, there will always be reasonable exceptions. Deletions should never be made without making an attempt to contact the creator.
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:47 pm

sketch wrote:A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.


Sadly, an F-150 does not fit in many of the driveways in my neighborhood. And people with tilt-up garage doors have even Camry-sized cars impeding the sidewalk.

sketch wrote:Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.


Perhaps. It just seems like there are some elite level users here who might support, while other users at the same level will veto driveways based on a personal preference that is a "rule" in their mind but not defacto. I personally agree a 10M driveway is too short to need mapping. So maybe it should be "do NOT map driveways less than 10M that serve a single address" and add a guideline of "Avoid mapping driveways less than 100M that serve a single address". Should the first rule be "Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no rule against it."?
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:56 am

mapcat wrote:
200.jpg
These driveways are 200-300m long, but the houses are still within view of the road.

100.jpg
OTOH, this house is less than 150m from the highway, but it's obscured by two rows of trees and a railway. Does its curving driveway belong on the map?

The northernmore(?) house of the two in the 200-300m example might get mistaken for the southernmore house if house numbers are live before the stop point function is working. A perpendicular drawn from the center of the roof of the north house will be nearer to the south house's driveway. Also, there does seem to be some plant life between the north house and the road...

On the other hand, the house with the curving driveway doesn't seem like it would be confused for any other house.

Not that I disagree with you, though. I do agree that simply "50 m or more from the road" isn't enough. 300 m is nearly a quarter mile, though...
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Re: Driveways

Postby mapcat » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:48 am

I don't think we can honestly say that driveways longer than X should always be mapped. Here are some images for reference (for context, click to the right of each image for a permalink):

20.jpg
(7.11 KiB) Downloaded 1948 times
This driveway is approximately 20 m, and is of typical length in suburban areas of the USA.

200.jpg
(15.68 KiB) Downloaded 1944 times
These driveways are 200-300m long, but the houses are still within view of the road.

100.jpg
(18.52 KiB) Downloaded 1947 times
OTOH, this house is less than 150m from the highway, but it's obscured by two rows of trees and a railway. Does its curving driveway belong on the map?
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:06 pm

Riamus wrote:Regarding drive-thrus, my opinion is simply that 1) mapping them prevents problems, and 2) you should worry more about fixing problems than worrying about whether or not you think it's too cluttered, and 3) unless auto-zoom is disabled, you aren't going to even see the parking lot roads if you're at about 25-30 mph unless you are navigating and a turn is coming up. If you're in a very slow part of a city, you may see them more often, but you'll also be going so slowly that you still won't see that many on the screen at the same time. If you're going fast enough to matter, then they won't be showing up anyhow. Yes, we want them made less visible. I've suggested using just a centerline for them. But as long as mapping one prevents problems - bad speed data and avoiding map problems - then I think it's a good idea to map them. Just keep pushing hard for changing the display of those roads. For that matter, we already can change color schemes... get Waze to put the width of roads into the configuration as well instead of being hard coded. Then everyone can have what they want for the display.

Not to mention that drive-thrus don't look anything like regular roads on the map. I look at a map with mapped drive-thrus and I think "there must be a McDonald's there".

Making parking lot roads less obvious is gonna take more work than we thought, though. Road width is actually modifiable in the theme files, but parking lot roads don't have their own display type. It's shared with a couple other types. And we don't want private roads made smaller.

JJLatWayz wrote:I'm not disputing that. If 5 meters is ridiculously low, then it should be easy to get unanimous consensus to create an actual rule. If everyone agrees "10 meters" regardless of the number of addresses should never be mapped, great. I don't think I've been around long enough to cast a vote, but I have done enough editing and driving and using competing sat/nav to offer an opinion.

By the way, when I said "5 meters", I was thinking of physical distance, not virtual. The length of your driveway is the length from the edge of the street or public right-of-way, not the length from the center line of the road. So a literal 5 meter driveway, like my own, can not hold 2 cars parked end-to-end. At 5 meters, there is no room for confusion. If you've reached the closest spot on my street to my house, you could not possibly be confused about how to get to the right house. Having my driveway on the map can NOT benefit any aspect of Waze and NOT have my driveway would not harm Waze. It would indeed be ridiculous and I think everyone would agree. Even with multiple addresses off a 5 meter driveway, getting lost in the car is virtually impossible.

A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.

Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal. Plus, I don't even know how it would be physically possible to fit more than one house on a driveway you can't even fit a single Crown Victoria in.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.
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Re: Driveways

Postby jondrush » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:01 pm

Yeah, I boofed that one. I should have removed the "or single driveway" as the exceptions are covered.

I chose 10 meters because that seems to be the magical limit below which Waze ignores/gets confused by a segment. I don't create 10 m segments anywhere.
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:45 pm

russblau wrote:Really? 10 meters is still a pretty trivial driveway. ... [5 meters is] a ridiculously low cutoff.


I'm not disputing that. If 5 meters is ridiculously low, then it should be easy to get unanimous consensus to create an actual rule. If everyone agrees "10 meters" regardless of the number of addresses should never be mapped, great. I don't think I've been around long enough to cast a vote, but I have done enough editing and driving and using competing sat/nav to offer an opinion.

By the way, when I said "5 meters", I was thinking of physical distance, not virtual. The length of your driveway is the length from the edge of the street or public right-of-way, not the length from the center line of the road. So a literal 5 meter driveway, like my own, can not hold 2 cars parked end-to-end. At 5 meters, there is no room for confusion. If you've reached the closest spot on my street to my house, you could not possibly be confused about how to get to the right house. Having my driveway on the map can NOT benefit any aspect of Waze and NOT have my driveway would not harm Waze. It would indeed be ridiculous and I think everyone would agree. Even with multiple addresses off a 5 meter driveway, getting lost in the car is virtually impossible.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:36 pm

I agree that 5 meters (about 16 feet) is too low. 10 meters is still fairly low and basically only covers houses inside city limits. At that point, almost any house in the country will be longer than then minimum. That doesn't mean they need to all be marked. I'd say any driveway under 15 meters doesn't need to be marked. I also think that over 50 meters may be too low. My driveway is probably around 75-80 meters and I wouldn't consider it long enough to be marked. I'd say nothing under 15 meters and anything over 100 meters. Anything in the middle depends on the various requirements (multiple houses, etc.). But I'm okay with 5m and 50m if that's the consensus.

Regarding drive-thrus, my opinion is simply that 1) mapping them prevents problems, and 2) you should worry more about fixing problems than worrying about whether or not you think it's too cluttered, and 3) unless auto-zoom is disabled, you aren't going to even see the parking lot roads if you're at about 25-30 mph unless you are navigating and a turn is coming up. If you're in a very slow part of a city, you may see them more often, but you'll also be going so slowly that you still won't see that many on the screen at the same time. If you're going fast enough to matter, then they won't be showing up anyhow. Yes, we want them made less visible. I've suggested using just a centerline for them. But as long as mapping one prevents problems - bad speed data and avoiding map problems - then I think it's a good idea to map them. Just keep pushing hard for changing the display of those roads. For that matter, we already can change color schemes... get Waze to put the width of roads into the configuration as well instead of being hard coded. Then everyone can have what they want for the display.
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Re: Driveways

Postby russblau » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:14 pm

JJLatWayz wrote:
jondrush wrote:
1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property.

I think the minimum should be 10m. I altered some other comments for grammar and split 2a into two topics to discuss separately.


If you change "do NOT map driveways less than 5 meters long that serve a single address or property" to "do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property", that would seem to lower the consensus and change it from an agreed rule to a general guideline.


Really? 10 meters is still a pretty trivial driveway. I just mapped my driveway out of curiosity (and then deleted it) -- it is 41 meters, out to the centerline of the street (so the street probably accounts for 2-3 meters of the total length). That's a bit longer than average in northern Virginia, but not by much. This is for a house that fronts directly on the street. Go out a mile or two west of where I live, to where the 2-acre lots are, and you'll find plenty of driveways that are well over 100 meters long.

EDIT: A 5-meter long driveway, allowing at least 2 meters for the distance from the end of the driveway to the center of the street, would basically be one car-length long. If you have a pickup truck, you wouldn't be able to park it in this driveway without the bumper sticking out into the street. That's a ridiculously low cutoff.
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:40 pm

jondrush wrote:
1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property.

I think the minimum should be 10m. I altered some other comments for grammar and split 2a into two topics to discuss separately.


If you change "do NOT map driveways less than 5 meters long that serve a single address or property" to "do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property", that would seem to lower the consensus and change it from an agreed rule to a general guideline.

Does anyone disagree that a driveway with parameters; 1) less than 5 meters and 2) serving a single address, should never be mapped?

Even if everyone agrees with the 10 meter change, by inserting the "or", it implies a driveway serving a single address should never be mapped regardless of length. Which would further erode consensus on such a rule. With the combined parameters as a rule, it's easy to tell an editor to stop adding every residential driveway along every street.

Perhaps it could be a rule just to say "5 meters" regardless of how many addresses are served by that driveway, and "10 meter/single address" is a rule of its own.
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