Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:56 am

mapcat wrote:
200.jpg
These driveways are 200-300m long, but the houses are still within view of the road.

100.jpg
OTOH, this house is less than 150m from the highway, but it's obscured by two rows of trees and a railway. Does its curving driveway belong on the map?

The northernmore(?) house of the two in the 200-300m example might get mistaken for the southernmore house if house numbers are live before the stop point function is working. A perpendicular drawn from the center of the roof of the north house will be nearer to the south house's driveway. Also, there does seem to be some plant life between the north house and the road...

On the other hand, the house with the curving driveway doesn't seem like it would be confused for any other house.

Not that I disagree with you, though. I do agree that simply "50 m or more from the road" isn't enough. 300 m is nearly a quarter mile, though...
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:47 pm

sketch wrote:A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.


Sadly, an F-150 does not fit in many of the driveways in my neighborhood. And people with tilt-up garage doors have even Camry-sized cars impeding the sidewalk.

sketch wrote:Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.


Perhaps. It just seems like there are some elite level users here who might support, while other users at the same level will veto driveways based on a personal preference that is a "rule" in their mind but not defacto. I personally agree a 10M driveway is too short to need mapping. So maybe it should be "do NOT map driveways less than 10M that serve a single address" and add a guideline of "Avoid mapping driveways less than 100M that serve a single address". Should the first rule be "Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no rule against it."?
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:17 pm

My 2 cents.

First,
mapcat wrote:- Don't map driveways just to make map problems go away.

I understand what's being said here, in that I understand that missing road MPs don't necessary mean there is a real problem with the map. That being said, I only map driveways where I can find some problem that is solved by their presence on the map. Which usually means 1) waze routing doesn't take you somewhere reasonably close to the entrance of the driveway without the driveway on the map and the routing is significantly improved with the driveway on the map, or 2) the driveway is complex enough that further directions are required after entering the driveway (e.g. the multiple residence served by a single driveway issue).

Second,
I think it would be very useful for standards regarding when to map driveways to be included in the wiki. However, I am also very opposed to any such standard implying that driveways that have been added to the map (as opposed to those from the base map) may be freely deleted because they don't meet the standards. No matter what standards we come up with, there will always be reasonable exceptions. Deletions should never be made without making an attempt to contact the creator.
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Re: Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:30 pm

I think these all fit within the guidelines, but just to exemplify common issues with proper routing.

https://www.waze.com/editor?zoom=6&lat= ... -122.48828
Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 3.22.42 PM.png
Screen Shot 2013-08-07 at 3.22.42 PM.png (506.85 KiB) Viewed 3814 times


The top horizontal road has houses on its south which are closer to the private road south of them. (Those can be adjusted.) The private road is required to navigate properly to the house at the western end. Note that address is 95% closer to Maple Hill Ln rather than 172nd Ave, which is where its address comes from.

Then south of that there another private rd/named road pair. The private road wouldn't be necessary except the public named road, which serves several houses, is so darn close, that in order to differential which to turn onto, the private road becomes necessary, otherwise the driver is sent down Wooded Heights to get to it, and it's fenced apart and so you have to back up and head into the gated private entrance to the intended address. Streetview.

These kinds of situations, especially the 2nd, don't happen a lot in urban areas, but the western (currently) less populated states deal with this all over the place.
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:18 pm

CBenson wrote:My 2 cents.


I second those thoughts without qualification.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:46 pm

Alan, I see what you mean about the single row of houses between two roads at the top there. That is fairly common and a situation I hadn't thought of. Once internal addressing is active and working, it won't be a problem. But until then, having a driveway would at least solve the problem in the short term. That being said, do we really want all of those driveways marked? In many cases, a specific driveway may never be routed to in Waze, so adding it would be moot. I'd be okay in that kind of a situation with a person adding their address or someone else's that they go to or whatever, but not to adding every driveway on the street.

As for the bottom one, I don't see the scale, but that looks like it's far enough off the street for a driveway to be acceptable based on the discussion here. Even after internal addresses are enabled, it still would probably make sense to have that just like with other really long driveways.
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Re: Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:49 pm

Riamus wrote:In many cases, a specific driveway may never be routed to in Waze, so adding it would be moot. I'd be okay in that kind of a situation with a person adding their address or someone else's that they go to or whatever, but not to adding every driveway on the street.

These are examples where marking the driveway is required based on search results putting the GPS pin on the house itself. Without driveways for both cases, which don't fit nicely into the guidelines as I've understood them in this thread so far, routing will be incorrect.

It doesn't matter if this is internal or external address data as the location of the houses in relation to other streets is the problem.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:09 am

Why wouldn't internal addressing help? You have a stop point, so Waze should route to the stop point no matter where the address point is located so long as Waze has an address for the house so that external addressing isn't needed.
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Re: Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:55 pm

Riamus wrote:Why wouldn't internal addressing help? You have a stop point, so Waze should route to the stop point no matter where the address point is located so long as Waze has an address for the house so that external addressing isn't needed.

It would help, but only for single-address-per-private-drive unless we continue with the kludge of naming private drives after the street they are attached to. I'm refusing to do that because it isn't accurate. Waze will fix the stop-point problems and then, when we can have stop points on unnamed private drive and parking lot segments, we'll be fine. Until then, it still won't work well enough.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Here was the last summary that I saw and I think I have updated based on comments:

1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
a. Map driveways that serve multiple distinct addresses or properties.
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long.
c. Do NOT map driveways that serve a single address or property unless covered below.
c. Mapped driveways should be marked as "Private Road".

2. General agreement ("Guidelines"?)
a. Map driveways over 50 meters
a2. Map driveways if Waze might confuse being on that driveway for being on an adjacent street or vice-versa.
a3. Map a driveway if it has its own street name and at least one address is assigned to that name, regardless of length.
b. Map driveways if the address coordinates are likely to route to an adjacent road that is inaccessible to the address.
d. Do NOT map driveways just to resolve a UR or system generated error.
e. Do NOT map driveways just because they appear on other mapping services.
f. Do NOT delete a driveway that you think does not meet the standards without trying to contact the creator of the segment first.
g. Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no recommendation not to map it without coming to the forums to discuss your unique situation so we can get consensus.

3. No current consensus ("Things to consider"?)
a. Name the driveway according to the street to which it's attached.
b. For named driveways, add house numbers.


2a3. I disagree with this since a road with a name is a road and should be mapped since it is likely to have addresses (even one) that cannot otherwise be reached.

2d. I disagree with this as a general guideline. I think it would depend upon the situation, like Waze seeing a car driving off the road and then snapping to an adjacent road nearby giving a "roads not connected" MP.

2f. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

2g. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

3a. If a driveway has no name, it should not be named. Names are for roads that have a visible sign that drivers can see in order to know where to turn (excluding when a sign is knocked down of course). Ehud told us not to kludge things in the map just to get something to work because then we have to undo all that is incorrect once they fix it.
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