Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:45 pm

russblau wrote:Really? 10 meters is still a pretty trivial driveway. ... [5 meters is] a ridiculously low cutoff.


I'm not disputing that. If 5 meters is ridiculously low, then it should be easy to get unanimous consensus to create an actual rule. If everyone agrees "10 meters" regardless of the number of addresses should never be mapped, great. I don't think I've been around long enough to cast a vote, but I have done enough editing and driving and using competing sat/nav to offer an opinion.

By the way, when I said "5 meters", I was thinking of physical distance, not virtual. The length of your driveway is the length from the edge of the street or public right-of-way, not the length from the center line of the road. So a literal 5 meter driveway, like my own, can not hold 2 cars parked end-to-end. At 5 meters, there is no room for confusion. If you've reached the closest spot on my street to my house, you could not possibly be confused about how to get to the right house. Having my driveway on the map can NOT benefit any aspect of Waze and NOT have my driveway would not harm Waze. It would indeed be ridiculous and I think everyone would agree. Even with multiple addresses off a 5 meter driveway, getting lost in the car is virtually impossible.
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:47 pm

sketch wrote:A literal 5 meter driveway can't hold a regular cab Ford F-150, at 5.41 m the shortest version of the best-selling vehicle in America. It can barely hold the best selling car, the 4.81 m Toyota Camry.


Sadly, an F-150 does not fit in many of the driveways in my neighborhood. And people with tilt-up garage doors have even Camry-sized cars impeding the sidewalk.

sketch wrote:Including it in the standards as "Don't map driveways less than 5m long" will be interpreted as "Consider mapping driveways longer than 5m", which is way not optimal.

"Easy to get consensus" is not a legitimate reason to write a rule a certain way.


Perhaps. It just seems like there are some elite level users here who might support, while other users at the same level will veto driveways based on a personal preference that is a "rule" in their mind but not defacto. I personally agree a 10M driveway is too short to need mapping. So maybe it should be "do NOT map driveways less than 10M that serve a single address" and add a guideline of "Avoid mapping driveways less than 100M that serve a single address". Should the first rule be "Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no rule against it."?
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Re: Driveways

Postby JJLatWayz » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:18 pm

CBenson wrote:My 2 cents.


I second those thoughts without qualification.
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Re: Driveways

Postby jondrush » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:03 pm

1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
a. Map driveways that serve multiple distinct addresses or properties.
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long or that serve a single address or property.
c. Mapped driveways should be marked as "Private Road".

2. General agreement ("Guidelines"?)
a. Map driveways over 50 meters
a2. Map driveways if Waze might confuse being on that driveway for being on an adjacent street or vice-versa.
b. Map driveways if the address coordinates are likely to route to an adjacent road that is inaccessible to the address.
d. Do NOT map driveways just to resolve a UR or system generated error.
e. Do NOT map driveways just because they appear on other mapping services.

3. No current consensus ("Things to consider"?)
a. Name the driveway according to the street to which it's attached.
b. For named driveways, add house numbers.

I think the minimum should be 10m. I altered some other comments for grammar and split 2a into two topics to discuss separately.
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Re: Driveways

Postby jondrush » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:01 pm

Yeah, I boofed that one. I should have removed the "or single driveway" as the exceptions are covered.

I chose 10 meters because that seems to be the magical limit below which Waze ignores/gets confused by a segment. I don't create 10 m segments anywhere.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Here was the last summary that I saw and I think I have updated based on comments:

1. Nearly universal agreement ("Rules"?):
a. Map driveways that serve multiple distinct addresses or properties.
b. Do NOT map driveways less than 10 meters long.
c. Do NOT map driveways that serve a single address or property unless covered below.
c. Mapped driveways should be marked as "Private Road".

2. General agreement ("Guidelines"?)
a. Map driveways over 50 meters
a2. Map driveways if Waze might confuse being on that driveway for being on an adjacent street or vice-versa.
a3. Map a driveway if it has its own street name and at least one address is assigned to that name, regardless of length.
b. Map driveways if the address coordinates are likely to route to an adjacent road that is inaccessible to the address.
d. Do NOT map driveways just to resolve a UR or system generated error.
e. Do NOT map driveways just because they appear on other mapping services.
f. Do NOT delete a driveway that you think does not meet the standards without trying to contact the creator of the segment first.
g. Do NOT map a driveway just because there is no recommendation not to map it without coming to the forums to discuss your unique situation so we can get consensus.

3. No current consensus ("Things to consider"?)
a. Name the driveway according to the street to which it's attached.
b. For named driveways, add house numbers.


2a3. I disagree with this since a road with a name is a road and should be mapped since it is likely to have addresses (even one) that cannot otherwise be reached.

2d. I disagree with this as a general guideline. I think it would depend upon the situation, like Waze seeing a car driving off the road and then snapping to an adjacent road nearby giving a "roads not connected" MP.

2f. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

2g. I added this based on thread concerns and I agree.

3a. If a driveway has no name, it should not be named. Names are for roads that have a visible sign that drivers can see in order to know where to turn (excluding when a sign is knocked down of course). Ehud told us not to kludge things in the map just to get something to work because then we have to undo all that is incorrect once they fix it.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:17 am

mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:I think you misread 2a3. It does say to map any driveway that is named. :)

Perhaps Kent was saying that if a driveway has a street name, it is a street, not a driveway.

Correct.

Riamus wrote:I'm also of the opinion that 2d can be questionable. It may be better to word it as "In general, do not map..." or something like that. For most cases, it probably shouldn't be mapped just to resolve a UR or MP, but there may be valid reasons to map it.

I think that would be a good alternate wording.

Riamus wrote:And I agree that 3a should not be done. Not only is it not correct, but it makes the map look bad. I've seen maps where every side street or driveway shown on it had the same name as the road. You couldn't really tell what parts were actually roads and which parts were driveways or which parts may be other roads with or without a name. It just creates a mess.

Based on mapcat's comments I think we three are pretty unanimous so far.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:35 pm

mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:Ok. Though I'd still say that it would be a private road, which would be the same mapping as a driveway since we don't have a driveway road type. If someone pays to get their driveway named, it doesn't make it a public street.

IMO if it has a name, it is not a driveway, so if it is private, call it a private road, and if it is public, call it a street. Just not a driveway. ;)

I believe mapcat is saying that if a road has a name and is behind a gate or marked as private, it is not a driveway, but merely a private road. If it is named and publicly accessible it is not a driveway, but a street. However, since we don't have a driveway designator, I'm not sure this argument is important because it is either a street or private road.

However I would not recommend naming the "Private Road / Driveway" unless the name it is clearly visible to the driver as they approach the road in question.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:23 pm

russblau wrote:Well, I can tell you for a fact that at least in some places (Sussex Co DE) there are some private roads that have a name and at least one address assigned to them, but they sometimes have no visible sign and look like a driveway.

I think we all agree there are exceptions to every rule. If the city recognizes the name on a road and other maps recognize the name on the road, then I say we name it. Our point was if someone decided to name their driveway "Joe Rd", that is not a recognized name and we should not map the name.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:37 am

I guess the other way of looking at that particular issue is if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped. Once mapped you can decide what kind of roadway that should be. This original topic was about WHEN to map driveways, so I propose we just make that first point up front to prevent people getting confused (as we were a bit here). :mrgreen:
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