Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:36 pm

I agree that 5 meters (about 16 feet) is too low. 10 meters is still fairly low and basically only covers houses inside city limits. At that point, almost any house in the country will be longer than then minimum. That doesn't mean they need to all be marked. I'd say any driveway under 15 meters doesn't need to be marked. I also think that over 50 meters may be too low. My driveway is probably around 75-80 meters and I wouldn't consider it long enough to be marked. I'd say nothing under 15 meters and anything over 100 meters. Anything in the middle depends on the various requirements (multiple houses, etc.). But I'm okay with 5m and 50m if that's the consensus.

Regarding drive-thrus, my opinion is simply that 1) mapping them prevents problems, and 2) you should worry more about fixing problems than worrying about whether or not you think it's too cluttered, and 3) unless auto-zoom is disabled, you aren't going to even see the parking lot roads if you're at about 25-30 mph unless you are navigating and a turn is coming up. If you're in a very slow part of a city, you may see them more often, but you'll also be going so slowly that you still won't see that many on the screen at the same time. If you're going fast enough to matter, then they won't be showing up anyhow. Yes, we want them made less visible. I've suggested using just a centerline for them. But as long as mapping one prevents problems - bad speed data and avoiding map problems - then I think it's a good idea to map them. Just keep pushing hard for changing the display of those roads. For that matter, we already can change color schemes... get Waze to put the width of roads into the configuration as well instead of being hard coded. Then everyone can have what they want for the display.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:46 pm

Alan, I see what you mean about the single row of houses between two roads at the top there. That is fairly common and a situation I hadn't thought of. Once internal addressing is active and working, it won't be a problem. But until then, having a driveway would at least solve the problem in the short term. That being said, do we really want all of those driveways marked? In many cases, a specific driveway may never be routed to in Waze, so adding it would be moot. I'd be okay in that kind of a situation with a person adding their address or someone else's that they go to or whatever, but not to adding every driveway on the street.

As for the bottom one, I don't see the scale, but that looks like it's far enough off the street for a driveway to be acceptable based on the discussion here. Even after internal addresses are enabled, it still would probably make sense to have that just like with other really long driveways.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:09 am

Why wouldn't internal addressing help? You have a stop point, so Waze should route to the stop point no matter where the address point is located so long as Waze has an address for the house so that external addressing isn't needed.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:51 pm

I think you misread 2a3. It does say to map any driveway that is named. :)

I'm also of the opinion that 2d can be questionable. It may be better to word it as "In general, do not map..." or something like that. For most cases, it probably shouldn't be mapped just to resolve a UR or MP, but there may be valid reasons to map it.

And I agree that 3a should not be done. Not only is it not correct, but it makes the map look bad. I've seen maps where every side street or driveway shown on it had the same name as the road. You couldn't really tell what parts were actually roads and which parts were driveways or which parts may be other roads with or without a name. It just creates a mess.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:27 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:
mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:I think you misread 2a3. It does say to map any driveway that is named. :)

Perhaps Kent was saying that if a driveway has a street name, it is a street, not a driveway.

Correct.


Ok. Though I'd still say that it would be a private road, which would be the same mapping as a driveway since we don't have a driveway road type. If someone pays to get their driveway named, it doesn't make it a public street.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:49 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:
mapcat wrote:
Riamus wrote:Ok. Though I'd still say that it would be a private road, which would be the same mapping as a driveway since we don't have a driveway road type. If someone pays to get their driveway named, it doesn't make it a public street.

IMO if it has a name, it is not a driveway, so if it is private, call it a private road, and if it is public, call it a street. Just not a driveway. ;)

I believe mapcat is saying that if a road has a name and is behind a gate or marked as private, it is not a driveway, but merely a private road. If it is named and publicly accessible it is not a driveway, but a street. However, since we don't have a driveway designator, I'm not sure this argument is important because it is either a street or private road.


Right. IF we get a driveway road type, then we can designate it differently whether it is named or not. Until then, as I mentioned, it's still just a private road unless it's meant as a public road. If it was someone's driveway and they paid to get it named, it won't be public, so it would be a private road. No different from an unnamed driveway other than that it has a name on it. The road type would remain the same. If we ever get a driveway road type, then we'll have named driveways marked as private roads (or public if needed) and unnamed driveways marked as driveways. But that isn't the case at this time.

kentsmith9 wrote:I think we all agree there are exceptions to every rule. If the city recognizes the name on a road and other maps recognize the name on the road, then I say we name it. Our point was if someone decided to name their driveway "Joe Rd", that is not a recognized name and we should not map the name.


Just to clarify on this... if the name is official, it should be mapped regardless what the name is. Official meaning there is an official green street sign there (or there could be one officially placed there), or if the city or county has approved the name as official. If someone just sticks a sign at the end of the driveway, then that isn't official. In the US, I believe there is a fee to officially name a driveway. If that has been paid, then we should map it and name it. And the assumption is that it was paid if there is either an official street sign there or the street name is on official city, county, or state maps.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:28 pm

Really? Ok, then... as long as it's an official sign regardless of color. I've only ever seen official street signs that are green, but whatever is official is what I meant; not those signs you can buy at a store. :)
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:56 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.


Two things and I'll start with the second item you commented on... Just because the entrance is named doesn't in any way suggest that every parking lot road should be named the same. If only the entrance is named, then only the entrance should be marked with the name. I'm not sure why that would even be considered. I can't think of any reason why all roads in a parking lot would ever be given the same name or why that would be suggested or considered.

And now back to the first item... Was that entrance named at the street? It doesn't really matter if it's named at every intersection. If it's named at least one place, it should be named in the map. For that matter, even if it isn't named on a sign, if it has been given an official name, then it should be named on the map. It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road. Consider leaving a parking lot that isn't named and the instructions as you head out say to turn right onto Main St. Just because there isn't a Main St sign at the end of the parking lot road doesn't mean the driver is going to be confused. Also, considering that we're talking about parking lots here, you should only be routed into there if that's your destination. And if it's your destination, you aren't really going to care about what the directions say other than to tell you to turn into the lot.

I still say that all roads of any type that have an official name on them should be named in the map without exception. If a road does not have an official name, then it should not be named on the map, though there can be valid exceptions there. For example, an airport may not name the roads leading to the various sections of parking, but it would be of benefit to a driver to hear something like "Turn left onto Section A." That may not be great grammar, but it lets them know they are going into Section A's parking area. I would only name the entrances to the area and not the rest of the parking lot roads in the area, though.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.


That would be why you would not name the street based on the name of the mall. If the street doesn't have a name, don't name it and you don't have this problem. If the street is named, then there is nothing wrong with the instructions saying to turn onto XX Road because that is exactly what you're doing whether you are entering or exiting the parking lot.


I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.


Right. I did not suggest using the mall name. As mentioned above your quote, only name roads that have names. Do not put in fake names, such as the name of the mall. It is really never a good idea to falsify the data. Name a street if it is named. Do not name the street if it is not named.

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.


As mentioned above, that makes exiting the mall not make any sense. If the road is named, then it makes sense to say to turn onto the road of that name than to say to turn onto some other road. If I'm going to the police station and the road leading to the parking lot is called Prison Way, the instruction should be to turn onto Prison Way and not to turn onto City Police Station. There isn't any reason why malls should be different.

As far as instances where there isn't a named road at the entrance, then the directions may pull the name of the first named segment and that's more of a matter of bad implementation than anything else. We should not fake the road names just because of that. It would be pretty easy to just have Waze not say a street name if the next segment is an unnamed parking lot road. If you're turning from one parking lot road to another parking lot road that is not named, just say "Turn Right" or "Turn Left." If turning from a parking lot road onto a named road, then include the name in the directions. The entrance to a parking lot should be a parking lot road unless it's an actual street and an actual street should have a name, so that should work in all instances when the map is set up correctly.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Sorry. Yes, I'm referring to two separate issues. Entering and Exiting.

Entering:
When entering onto a named street, you should hear the instruction using that street name and not the name of the mall. When entering onto an unnamed street, you should just hear to turn and not receive a street name instruction at all. Although you may have an unofficial "name," I don't consider it correct to label the street as if it were an official name. If the city doesn't consider that to be official, neither should we. And by not doing that, we avoid the situation where I've seen the same "custom" name like that sign at every single entrance. It doesn't help drivers to have half a dozen different entrances/exits that all have the same "name". And a "custom" name at a mall is no different from someone going to a store and buying a "custom" sign and hanging it at the end of their driveway. That doesn't mean we have to name the driveway based on that sign.

Exiting:
When exiting, you do not want to hear the directions saying to turn onto the mall name if you're leaving the mall. That just really doesn't make sense. Instead, if you are exiting onto a named street that's part of the mall's parking lot structure, you should hear the directions stating the correct name of the street and not the mall's name. If you are exiting onto an unnamed street that's part of the mall's parking lot structure, then you should not hear any instruction mentioning the mall's name. Ideally, you also would not hear any street name going from unnamed to unnamed within a parking lot. However, we know that you'll pick up the first named segment when leaving the lot. Waze needs to fix that so it makes sense in the various situations where you should not hear the next named segment or else provide us with an option to name a street "null" in addition to unnamed and if there is a null street before getting to a named segment, it will not read the next named segment. You could then place that on all parking lot entrances that aren't named and avoid the problems entering or exiting the lots.
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