Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:32 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:The discussion then rather turns around where @sketch and @kentsmith9 appear to go back on the previous advice and advocate for naming private roads, after which I chime in again about private roads and parking lots. If we follow the latest advice from sketch and kent, then we'd be naming every parking lot road too, something I completely disagree with.

Having the (current) correct stop-point for an address be on the private (unnamed) road or parking lot segment is not reason enough to start naming all of them. This goes against what we've been asked by Ehud: not to kludge the map. We do still need to, but when it comes to this, I see no point. Waze doesn't use internal addresses and stop-points now, and likely won't for quite some time. As has been mentioned on the addressing topic several times in other threads, Waze has to make the stop point more flexible first. Otherwise, their stop-point routing will fail to get people to the right locations.

Sorry, I must have misread or misinterpreted this or another related proposal as to require the match-naming of actually-unnamed driveways, essentially to kludge internal addresses into working. I was enforcing that without really thinking about it.

You're right I think, internal addresses should be implemented either fully or not at all.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:07 pm

sketch wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:The discussion then rather turns around where @sketch and @kentsmith9 appear to go back on the previous advice and advocate for naming private roads, after which I chime in again about private roads and parking lots. If we follow the latest advice from sketch and kent, then we'd be naming every parking lot road too, something I completely disagree with.

Having the (current) correct stop-point for an address be on the private (unnamed) road or parking lot segment is not reason enough to start naming all of them. This goes against what we've been asked by Ehud: not to kludge the map. We do still need to, but when it comes to this, I see no point. Waze doesn't use internal addresses and stop-points now, and likely won't for quite some time. As has been mentioned on the addressing topic several times in other threads, Waze has to make the stop point more flexible first. Otherwise, their stop-point routing will fail to get people to the right locations.

Sorry, I must have misread or misinterpreted this or another related proposal as to require the match-naming of actually-unnamed driveways, essentially to kludge internal addresses into working. I was enforcing that without really thinking about it.

You're right I think, internal addresses should be implemented either fully or not at all.

Alan, I reread my posts and I don't see where sketch and I proposed naming parking lot roads, so maybe there is a word choice problem I don't recognize. I definitely do not support naming PLot roads, so maybe we can add a bullet to our page that specifically calls that out.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:12 pm

Something does need to be done, though, about the way the client handles unnamed parking lot roads in the navigation instructions... I guess we won't be able to do anything about that until the client can see the difference between parking lot roads and streets.

Or does it have to? Does the routing server give the text of the instructions to the client, too?

Either way, I don't recall seeing anything about it on Bugzilla.
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Re: Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:10 am

kentsmith9 wrote:Alan, I reread my posts and I don't see where sketch and I proposed naming parking lot roads, so maybe there is a word choice problem I don't recognize. I definitely do not support naming PLot roads, so maybe we can add a bullet to our page that specifically calls that out.

It was this that I picked up on: "...if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped."

sketch also wrote "Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named 'driveways' as I see it."

This caught my eye because it isn't clear what is meant by the "roadway is named" and has addresses associated. Because lots of editors have already named private roads which don't actually have a name, but they do have addresses associated with the main road. And we've talked here and I've read other threads where editors are advocating naming private unnamed driveways after the main roadway because then they can set addresses and a proper stop point.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:08 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:It was this that I picked up on: "...if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped."

sketch also wrote "Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named 'driveways' as I see it."

This caught my eye because it isn't clear what is meant by the "roadway is named" and has addresses associated. Because lots of editors have already named private roads which don't actually have a name, but they do have addresses associated with the main road. And we've talked here and I've read other threads where editors are advocating naming private unnamed driveways after the main roadway because then they can set addresses and a proper stop point.

I see. I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road. I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name and then the guidance would not make sense, so without names you at least get "follow the highlighted route" until you come to the main road. We should include this info in the writeup since it will look like a driveway on the road, but just happens to have a business and not a house.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:15 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
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kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:25 pm

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
http://local.safeway.com/md/gambrills-1596.html
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lon ... TFTTTTFTTT

Perfect examples where it appears the city actually named the roads separately inside what we would consider a parking lot and uses the names for addresses of the buildings. This is not the norm out in California for sure.

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.

I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:56 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.


Two things and I'll start with the second item you commented on... Just because the entrance is named doesn't in any way suggest that every parking lot road should be named the same. If only the entrance is named, then only the entrance should be marked with the name. I'm not sure why that would even be considered. I can't think of any reason why all roads in a parking lot would ever be given the same name or why that would be suggested or considered.

And now back to the first item... Was that entrance named at the street? It doesn't really matter if it's named at every intersection. If it's named at least one place, it should be named in the map. For that matter, even if it isn't named on a sign, if it has been given an official name, then it should be named on the map. It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road. Consider leaving a parking lot that isn't named and the instructions as you head out say to turn right onto Main St. Just because there isn't a Main St sign at the end of the parking lot road doesn't mean the driver is going to be confused. Also, considering that we're talking about parking lots here, you should only be routed into there if that's your destination. And if it's your destination, you aren't really going to care about what the directions say other than to tell you to turn into the lot.

I still say that all roads of any type that have an official name on them should be named in the map without exception. If a road does not have an official name, then it should not be named on the map, though there can be valid exceptions there. For example, an airport may not name the roads leading to the various sections of parking, but it would be of benefit to a driver to hear something like "Turn left onto Section A." That may not be great grammar, but it lets them know they are going into Section A's parking area. I would only name the entrances to the area and not the rest of the parking lot roads in the area, though.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:43 pm

Maybe when Alan replies in this thread he can remember the other thread for which I am mentioning. In the mean time here is an actual example of what I am talking about (and might even be the original example he and I were reviewing).

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.

http://leec-eb.reapplications.com/filec ... 3-2011.pdf
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Riamus wrote:It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road.

I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.
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