Driveways

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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:42 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
sketch wrote:I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

No, because it will say that also when navigating you out of the mall and that makes no sense. It certainly would be more confusing to be told to turn right and left four time at the "name of the mall" rather than the street name you are heading towards. What we need to have Waze do, rather than kludge the map, is nav instructions need to say "towards" instead of "at." And his has been discussed a lot before.

What Waze arguably needs to fix first is what happens when there are more navigation instructions but no more names. If I get off the interstate on a ramp that says "to Causeway Blvd S" and the next turn is into an unnamed parking lot, "to Causeway Blvd S" stays on the screen all the way to the end, or at least all the way until you're in the parking lot. Changing "at" to "towards" would fix it for all other instances of unnamed roads—ramps, at-grade connectors—leading to named roads, but it won't fix this, which is far more confusing. There must be an exception for the "take the next name" thing when there is no next name.

I don't see a bug filed in Bugzilla for either of these.
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.


That would be why you would not name the street based on the name of the mall. If the street doesn't have a name, don't name it and you don't have this problem. If the street is named, then there is nothing wrong with the instructions saying to turn onto XX Road because that is exactly what you're doing whether you are entering or exiting the parking lot.


I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.


Right. I did not suggest using the mall name. As mentioned above your quote, only name roads that have names. Do not put in fake names, such as the name of the mall. It is really never a good idea to falsify the data. Name a street if it is named. Do not name the street if it is not named.

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.


As mentioned above, that makes exiting the mall not make any sense. If the road is named, then it makes sense to say to turn onto the road of that name than to say to turn onto some other road. If I'm going to the police station and the road leading to the parking lot is called Prison Way, the instruction should be to turn onto Prison Way and not to turn onto City Police Station. There isn't any reason why malls should be different.

As far as instances where there isn't a named road at the entrance, then the directions may pull the name of the first named segment and that's more of a matter of bad implementation than anything else. We should not fake the road names just because of that. It would be pretty easy to just have Waze not say a street name if the next segment is an unnamed parking lot road. If you're turning from one parking lot road to another parking lot road that is not named, just say "Turn Right" or "Turn Left." If turning from a parking lot road onto a named road, then include the name in the directions. The entrance to a parking lot should be a parking lot road unless it's an actual street and an actual street should have a name, so that should work in all instances when the map is set up correctly.
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Re: Driveways

Postby sketch » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:04 pm

I disagree. If "Bollinger Crossing" is the name of the mall, and it's on a sign that looks like a street sign, the street should be named.

If you think it's confusing that it would continue to say "Bollinger Crossing", surely it would be far more confusing if it continued to say "San Ramon Valley Blvd" instead, which is what would happen otherwise.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Riamus wrote:It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road.

I now see what Kent is saying and agree. It can hurt navigation to give entrance roads to large mall/shopping complexes the name of the mall and leave the rest of the parking lot roads unnamed. Internally when exiting the lot I get turn instructions that use the name of the next named segment in the route. Thus, where there are multiple exits it is more helpful to be hearing the name of road at the exit I should be working towards, rather than a mall name that does not distinguish between exits.

However, if there are actual road signs that call different roads different names at the entrances or within parking lots, I think those names should be mapped.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:43 pm

Maybe when Alan replies in this thread he can remember the other thread for which I am mentioning. In the mean time here is an actual example of what I am talking about (and might even be the original example he and I were reviewing).

Having trouble uploading images, but when you go here you can see on Street View there is "Bollinger Crossing" from the overhead signs in the intersection headed into the parking lot. That is the name of the shopping center, not the road itself.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=6&lon ... TTTFTTTTFT

Inside the parking lot there is no such street names. If we named just this segment from the street, then when inside the parking lot you would get a message to turn at "Bollinger Crossing" when no sign in the parking lot is actually labeled with that name.

http://leec-eb.reapplications.com/filec ... 3-2011.pdf
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Re: Driveways

Postby Riamus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:56 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.


Two things and I'll start with the second item you commented on... Just because the entrance is named doesn't in any way suggest that every parking lot road should be named the same. If only the entrance is named, then only the entrance should be marked with the name. I'm not sure why that would even be considered. I can't think of any reason why all roads in a parking lot would ever be given the same name or why that would be suggested or considered.

And now back to the first item... Was that entrance named at the street? It doesn't really matter if it's named at every intersection. If it's named at least one place, it should be named in the map. For that matter, even if it isn't named on a sign, if it has been given an official name, then it should be named on the map. It doesn't hurt navigation for the map to have the name on it even if the driver won't see a sign pointing to the road. Consider leaving a parking lot that isn't named and the instructions as you head out say to turn right onto Main St. Just because there isn't a Main St sign at the end of the parking lot road doesn't mean the driver is going to be confused. Also, considering that we're talking about parking lots here, you should only be routed into there if that's your destination. And if it's your destination, you aren't really going to care about what the directions say other than to tell you to turn into the lot.

I still say that all roads of any type that have an official name on them should be named in the map without exception. If a road does not have an official name, then it should not be named on the map, though there can be valid exceptions there. For example, an airport may not name the roads leading to the various sections of parking, but it would be of benefit to a driver to hear something like "Turn left onto Section A." That may not be great grammar, but it lets them know they are going into Section A's parking area. I would only name the entrances to the area and not the rest of the parking lot roads in the area, though.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:25 pm

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
http://local.safeway.com/md/gambrills-1596.html
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lon ... TFTTTTFTTT

Perfect examples where it appears the city actually named the roads separately inside what we would consider a parking lot and uses the names for addresses of the buildings. This is not the norm out in California for sure.

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.

I cannot find the thread currently, but Alan and I found a parking lot where the main intersection leading into a big parking lot names the road leading into the parking lot. However that name is not present anywhere else inside the parking lot and no other names exist, so we agreed in that case we should not name that parking lot entrance since coming out of the parking lot a driver would never see that road name from any of the isles leading to the main entrance/exit road.

Also naming all the isles with the name of the parking lot entrance name would not make sense with all roads intersecting each other with the same name. Turn directions would not make sense for that case.

This is clearly different from your example above and we should identify the difference to prevent confusion.
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Re: Driveways

Postby CBenson » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:15 am

kentsmith9 wrote:I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road.

That's not how it always works around here. Of course it depends a bit on what you call a parking lot road.
http://local.safeway.com/md/gambrills-1596.html
https://www.waze.com/editor/?zoom=5&lon ... TFTTTTFTTT

kentsmith9 wrote: I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name

Why does the entire parking need to be one name? I don't remember the other thread.
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Re: Driveways

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:08 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:It was this that I picked up on: "...if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped."

sketch also wrote "Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named 'driveways' as I see it."

This caught my eye because it isn't clear what is meant by the "roadway is named" and has addresses associated. Because lots of editors have already named private roads which don't actually have a name, but they do have addresses associated with the main road. And we've talked here and I've read other threads where editors are advocating naming private unnamed driveways after the main roadway because then they can set addresses and a proper stop point.

I see. I would not think the addresses in a mall or other shopping center would have an address of the parking lot roads. I assume they are always on the main named road. I would not advocate naming the parking lot roads even when named per another thread where we discovered the entire parking lot would need to be the one name and then the guidance would not make sense, so without names you at least get "follow the highlighted route" until you come to the main road. We should include this info in the writeup since it will look like a driveway on the road, but just happens to have a business and not a house.
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Re: Driveways

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:10 am

kentsmith9 wrote:Alan, I reread my posts and I don't see where sketch and I proposed naming parking lot roads, so maybe there is a word choice problem I don't recognize. I definitely do not support naming PLot roads, so maybe we can add a bullet to our page that specifically calls that out.

It was this that I picked up on: "...if the roadway is named (and possibly has addresses associated), it should be mapped."

sketch also wrote "Plus if there's an address assigned to it, then it's an address, and we need the named road so we can put an address point on it. That's the top reason for the blanket admissibility of named 'driveways' as I see it."

This caught my eye because it isn't clear what is meant by the "roadway is named" and has addresses associated. Because lots of editors have already named private roads which don't actually have a name, but they do have addresses associated with the main road. And we've talked here and I've read other threads where editors are advocating naming private unnamed driveways after the main roadway because then they can set addresses and a proper stop point.
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