Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Waze

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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby shellshock2872 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:39 am

I agree alot with alan I apply for AM him amnd my region manager did not feel my knowledge was up to power where it should be so they rejected, it did not hurt my feeling, I will learn more, I have read up on it and got more knowledge, by useing the forms and sent pm, when I feel like I can answer more editors question, I will apply again, besides to do not need to be an area manager to edit the map just drive it and pay attention to your surrounding, I am only interested in my home area. And I want to do it rigth anything big like spliting a road or merging one your area manager is it just a pm away
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby moogonk » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:01 pm

CivicDuty29: Perfect post. Thank you.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby mchlkrieger » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:24 pm

I don't think Waze is intended to be a Google Maps competitor or the gospel of all things paved. In fact, since Google's takeover, making Waze more like Google Maps is a losing strategy.

The community-editable aspect of Waze is its defining feature, and for my part, the only reason I use it. Make it more difficult to edit, and you take away that sense of ownership. Get rid of the game elements, and you take away the fun.

The OP might be willing to plod away with joyless map edits, but I don't think that's a recipe for continued growth. I agree that better education is needed, and as a newbie, I'm often frustrated with the lack of an authoritative source of guidance. But then again, that's what makes Waze fun -- it's a group of real people interacting, making things better, and occasionally, making mistakes.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby CivicDuty29 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:17 pm

mchlkrieger wrote:But then again, that's what makes Waze fun -- it's a group of real people interacting, making things better, and occasionally, making mistakes.


And that's a good thing. Until groups of people, whose only purpose in making edits is to gain points to move up in rank, create hundreds of mistakes, on a daily basis. Some of them get noticed and corrected, but a large number of them won't. They just lie dormant until they affect someone else's navigation.

Making it more difficult to edit, by way of knowledge and skill requirements, would make the final "product" more reliable and consistent. The "game" element needs to be removed because this isn't a "game" - it's not SimCity - it's a real-world navigation app, and "playing" the game simply because you want to change the look of your gamepiece is a bad reason to be editing in the first place. It's like impulse shopping. They "find" things to "fix" that don't need fixing, or are the way they are for a reason. But most new people never read any farther than how to add their favorite landmark, adjust the driveway to their apartment complex, or insert a road to their favorite parking spot.

They don't understand why the geometry of some non-perpendicular intersections have a jog in them. They tell you that the "level 6 editors don't know what they are doing" as justification for why they "straightened it out". There are SO many variables and behind the scenes algorithms for why things are the way they are, or can't be the way they physically look in an aerial photo. But most don't get that far in the wiki to understand that. I certainly don't claim to understand them all myself. They just want their local WalMart and Jack-in-the-Box to show up on the map when they drive past them wearing The Almighty Crown™, and do it because there's nothing in the "beginner editor" process that doesn't tell them not to. They're given a toolbox with a full complement full of tools, but without real instruction for all of them, and only want to use the hammers because they are the easiest to use.
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Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Waze

Postby shellshock2872 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:45 am

Why don't they just start out locked into the take a 25 to 50 question test and the only one that can unlock it is RM and above, Then the would know whom there RM is and the RM would have an Ideal whom is editing
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby tckma » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:11 pm

Having joined Waze very recently, I still don't understand why there is such a "game" aspect to the app. I don't care if my in-app avatar is wearing a crown or carrying a sword or whatever. In fact, the person who introduced me to Waze said "the points thing is stupid," and I agree. I have a kind of extreme commute (98 mi round-trip), so the "500 miles a week" candy is easy, for example, but I don't care. Waze was recommended to me because I complained on FB about my commute and about how routing/traffic apps I'd tried up to this point were invariably abysmal. I'm not in it for the competition. I'm in it for an improved and more enjoyable commute.

The thing that hooked me on Waze was the ability to edit the map. I have been a roadgeek since I was a kid, and so this fascinates me. Yes, I have made mistakes, some which were pointed out to me on the forums, and I'm sure many more that have gone unnoticed by others and of which I am unaware. I anticipate that I will make many more mistakes. But I intend to learn from the forum, the wiki, and experience. I understand that few editors will do that.

"Oh but any Joe Schmoe off the street can vandalize the map and make bad edits!" Look at Wikipedia. Look how popular it is. Look how it is vandalized every minute of every hour of every day. Look how novice Wikipedia editors make mistakes they're unaware of and don't understand. The community corrects it. I think the same thing happens here. These are problems inherent in any system where the public can make edits freely. Here in Waze, there are Area Managers and locks and controls in place to make sure an editor knows what they are doing before they try something that could have a deadly result. I have no problem with that.

I haven't reached 5K edits yet, and I've been here less than a month, so I can't speak to whether or not the AM test is easy or superficial. All I know is the immediate area around my house has no AM as of yet, so I'm going to try for it when I have the opportunity. I'm not making edits just to increase my edit count to become an AM that much faster. I have no problem with the test being difficult, if you want to make it so. That will make me all that much more confident that I know what I'm doing when I pass it. If I think the test is too easy, I'll probably say something, and it won't mean as much.

There are people who will make edits just to increase their edit count and become an AM. For that, I say the map editor community should devise better testing (well, I can't really criticize the testing yet) and training materials, with an eye toward continuous improvement of those materials -- this will lead to continuous positive improvement of the map and the non-editing user's experience with Waze. The Waze wiki and Best Map Editing Practices have been great and they have helped me, but there's currently no requirement to read those, and no requirement to read or post to these forums, to have the ability to make edits. The map editor community is going to have to develop online training based on that material, and use that material to devise the test(s).

Just my $0.02.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby CookeCity » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:57 pm

As long as we are throwing pennies onto the pile, I figure I'll add mine as well.

While I agree about the potential of abuse due to the gaming nature of the app (I also don't care about what my avatar wears), I haven't seen too much of this behavior in the areas I work in, so maybe I'm just lucky. I think that some of the problems that sneak in are partially due to the initial process of how editors are welcomed to Waze.

I remember first starting out editing, mostly because I was in an area where the roads were a mess. I tried to pave a road, and then wondered why nothing magically happened to make it "real", so I found out how to edit and went from there.

The problem is that the Video that you watch has just enough information to make you truly dangerous. They cover all sorts of high level topics, and the details is what kills you. I just re-watched the video, and most of the important details I've learned through the Wiki and Forum just aren't there...but the video doesn't tell you that before you edit, you should be familiar with all of these. Once you finish watching it you figure you are ready to go - "hey look at all these driveways that nobody has mapped!"

I remember doing my first editing after that video, seeing "red" roads that I added, and assuming that they needed to be approved by somebody. Nobody pointed this out to me, and fortunately I came across the guidance in the Forums and quickly went back and "fixed" all of the incomplete work I'd done. But I had to see that in the Forums, even after reading the "Best map editing practice" Wiki page, there really isn't a description of what that red road really means. The "Recorded via Client" section only briefly mentions a red road, but it sure isn't highlighted like it should be (no pun intended).

Information on Landmarks really isn't even in the Wiki, you need to somehow know to look in the Country Forums to get some guidance, and then you still need to track the WME forum as well to really understand what the Champs want you to do.

It seems to me that all of the available Documentation is written as reference for medium to experienced users, and there isn't a really good "Editing 101" document that walks people through the real basics, explaining some of the rules that aren't as obvious as they should be.

And as a new editor, if you have a question for an AM, it turns out (if I understand it properly) that the list of AMs that display as an overlay on the WME are very out of date, and some of these people may not be active, again, you need to know how to dig through the forums so you can ask a question of an AM.

As I see new editors start out, I often try to PM them to give them some heads up and point them in the right direction, but most of the time they either don't have PMs turned on, or don't read them. Seems like this would be a very good "automated" way to filter out wayward editors. If it is a community process, shouldn't they be required to talk to the community?
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby Thortok2000 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:28 pm

I admit I'm very new to Waze. I love going in and editing the map in several of the ways mentioned in the original post, not because I'm point-hunting, but because I like having a really accurate map.

I watched all the videos on youtube and I've read some of the wiki. I'm not trying to mess up the map for anyone else, I'm trying to improve it, that's the whole point.

I don't see people get 'points' for editing other wiki-type databases. I don't see that it's necessary here, either. The incentive to edit the map is to have an accurate map. I don't see that there's any other incentive necessary.

I do think a 'communicate with other editors of the segment' and such would be handy. Or a way to add map notes that someone can reply to and you'll be notified of a response.

For reported map problems, I often want to ask the user additional questions to help me fix the map for them. That'd be handy, too.

I'm more than happy to take any additional knowledge of best practices available. I want the map to be accurate, consistent, and simple (in that priority.) I'm happy to put in plenty of effort to get it that way. What do I need to do?
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby AndyPoms » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Thortok2000 wrote:I do think a 'communicate with other editors of the segment' and such would be handy. Or a way to add map notes that someone can reply to and you'll be notified of a response.
Map Notes is on the development road map, no ETA yet.

Thortok2000 wrote:For reported map problems, I often want to ask the user additional questions to help me fix the map for them. That'd be handy, too.
Conversations on URs is currently in beta testing - you may have noticed some URs have little quotation marks on them - that indicates that there is a conversation going on in. Currently the contents of the conversation is only available in the beta editor.

Thortok2000 wrote:I'm more than happy to take any additional knowledge of best practices available. I want the map to be accurate, consistent, and simple (in that priority.) I'm happy to put in plenty of effort to get it that way. What do I need to do?
Read the wiki (links in my signature), read the forum, and ask questions here.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby scott_h » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:45 pm

There are some obvious points hounds. One local user has become a level 4 editor within 2 months of joining. They seem to have script capabilities and are "tagging" a massive amount of roads for edit points. This has a consequence of wiping out the proper last edit data so there is no way to know the last time someone purposefully edited a segment which was a feature I used to rely on. I was told that only country managers have access to scripts but this person seems to have found a backdoor. The only posts this person has made are related to scripting. Hopefully they are only after some perceived glory of points and ranking, but the question needs to be asked - could they do something much more devious with their map editing script skills after they achieve an even higher level?
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