Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Waze

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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby Thortok2000 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:30 am

Sure, I'll bite. Here's my original post.

Thortok2000 wrote:I admit I'm very new to Waze. I love going in and editing the map in several of the ways mentioned in the original post, not because I'm point-hunting, but because I like having a really accurate map.

I watched all the videos on youtube and I've read some of the wiki. I'm not trying to mess up the map for anyone else, I'm trying to improve it, that's the whole point.

I don't see people get 'points' for editing other wiki-type databases. I don't see that it's necessary here, either. The incentive to edit the map is to have an accurate map. I don't see that there's any other incentive necessary.


I still feel like 'points' are useless. All that seems to matter now is edit count so that you can get the higher rank and/or Area Manager rights, etc.

I do think a 'communicate with other editors of the segment' and such would be handy. Or a way to add map notes that someone can reply to and you'll be notified of a response.


Still think this, although things like closure UR's and notes on time-restricted roads or turns is a very good start that wasn't there when I made this comment. Even UR conversations weren't there when I made this comment.

For reported map problems, I often want to ask the user additional questions to help me fix the map for them. That'd be handy, too.


This has been added and is awesome.

I'm more than happy to take any additional knowledge of best practices available. I want the map to be accurate, consistent, and simple (in that priority.) I'm happy to put in plenty of effort to get it that way. What do I need to do?



The chat feature also wasn't there at the time of this post. Chat goes a long way in new users being able to ask questions and get answers. In fact, you couldn't even see other live users on the map at all back when this was written. LOTS has changed since this post to improve the experience.

In fact, one of the original complaints, over-mapping of landmarks, now with the new place system, many of those landmarks are okay to map, although you still have newbies mapping parking lots and not knowing when to use point instead of area, etc.

A lot has changed for the better since the original post, the wiki has been improved significantly and is more 'on track' with the way we actually want things to be, etc. I do think the video should be re-worked and I still think points are useless, but pretty much all the rest has been improved.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby tlcarpenter69 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:38 pm

Talk about thread revival.

What is really interesting is that some of the people in this thread mentioned being newbies when they wrote, and now they are an area manager according to their signatures. I want to know what they think about this after a year.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby HookThem » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:29 pm

I tend to agree with most points made in this post. Being a newbie editor (Level 1 with ~100 edits), I am CONSTANTLY flipping back to the wiki when I come to a situation that I didn't remember from the training video (e.g. point vs. area, do I need to tag the middle of the structure or the closest entry point). In the end, I know I am making QUALITY edits and filling out as much accurate information as possible. However, I don't think I represent the majority of the user base. If we had some kind of mandatory test prior to starting making edits, it would weed out the point hounds who just want score a bunch of points quickly. Furthermore, if a user has a track record of making a lot of bad edits, there should be some way to put them on a "probation" period or lock them out from editing altogether.

I spend about 30 minutes to an hour each evening looking at map update requests and adding my frequented locations to the map. After a week, I only have 100 edits. Call me slow -- but I know my edits are high quality and are creating a robust database that the Waze app will use correctly.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby JoshuaJolly » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:51 pm

I agree, even though I'm new to Waze and have made edits already, it is way to easy for the average point-motivated person to get on there and do what they want to increase their rank. We want efficient maps and these people just will not help. Great read. thanks a lot
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby AndyPoms » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:01 pm

scott_h wrote:There are some obvious points hounds. One local user has become a level 4 editor within 2 months of joining. They seem to have script capabilities and are "tagging" a massive amount of roads for edit points. This has a consequence of wiping out the proper last edit data so there is no way to know the last time someone purposefully edited a segment which was a feature I used to rely on. I was told that only country managers have access to scripts but this person seems to have found a backdoor. The only posts this person has made are related to scripting. Hopefully they are only after some perceived glory of points and ranking, but the question needs to be asked - could they do something much more devious with their map editing script skills after they achieve an even higher level?
Send the info to your Regional Coordinator or a Waze Champ, they can look into it and take appropriate action.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby scott_h » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:45 pm

There are some obvious points hounds. One local user has become a level 4 editor within 2 months of joining. They seem to have script capabilities and are "tagging" a massive amount of roads for edit points. This has a consequence of wiping out the proper last edit data so there is no way to know the last time someone purposefully edited a segment which was a feature I used to rely on. I was told that only country managers have access to scripts but this person seems to have found a backdoor. The only posts this person has made are related to scripting. Hopefully they are only after some perceived glory of points and ranking, but the question needs to be asked - could they do something much more devious with their map editing script skills after they achieve an even higher level?
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby AndyPoms » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Thortok2000 wrote:I do think a 'communicate with other editors of the segment' and such would be handy. Or a way to add map notes that someone can reply to and you'll be notified of a response.
Map Notes is on the development road map, no ETA yet.

Thortok2000 wrote:For reported map problems, I often want to ask the user additional questions to help me fix the map for them. That'd be handy, too.
Conversations on URs is currently in beta testing - you may have noticed some URs have little quotation marks on them - that indicates that there is a conversation going on in. Currently the contents of the conversation is only available in the beta editor.

Thortok2000 wrote:I'm more than happy to take any additional knowledge of best practices available. I want the map to be accurate, consistent, and simple (in that priority.) I'm happy to put in plenty of effort to get it that way. What do I need to do?
Read the wiki (links in my signature), read the forum, and ask questions here.
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby Thortok2000 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:28 pm

I admit I'm very new to Waze. I love going in and editing the map in several of the ways mentioned in the original post, not because I'm point-hunting, but because I like having a really accurate map.

I watched all the videos on youtube and I've read some of the wiki. I'm not trying to mess up the map for anyone else, I'm trying to improve it, that's the whole point.

I don't see people get 'points' for editing other wiki-type databases. I don't see that it's necessary here, either. The incentive to edit the map is to have an accurate map. I don't see that there's any other incentive necessary.

I do think a 'communicate with other editors of the segment' and such would be handy. Or a way to add map notes that someone can reply to and you'll be notified of a response.

For reported map problems, I often want to ask the user additional questions to help me fix the map for them. That'd be handy, too.

I'm more than happy to take any additional knowledge of best practices available. I want the map to be accurate, consistent, and simple (in that priority.) I'm happy to put in plenty of effort to get it that way. What do I need to do?
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby CookeCity » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:57 pm

As long as we are throwing pennies onto the pile, I figure I'll add mine as well.

While I agree about the potential of abuse due to the gaming nature of the app (I also don't care about what my avatar wears), I haven't seen too much of this behavior in the areas I work in, so maybe I'm just lucky. I think that some of the problems that sneak in are partially due to the initial process of how editors are welcomed to Waze.

I remember first starting out editing, mostly because I was in an area where the roads were a mess. I tried to pave a road, and then wondered why nothing magically happened to make it "real", so I found out how to edit and went from there.

The problem is that the Video that you watch has just enough information to make you truly dangerous. They cover all sorts of high level topics, and the details is what kills you. I just re-watched the video, and most of the important details I've learned through the Wiki and Forum just aren't there...but the video doesn't tell you that before you edit, you should be familiar with all of these. Once you finish watching it you figure you are ready to go - "hey look at all these driveways that nobody has mapped!"

I remember doing my first editing after that video, seeing "red" roads that I added, and assuming that they needed to be approved by somebody. Nobody pointed this out to me, and fortunately I came across the guidance in the Forums and quickly went back and "fixed" all of the incomplete work I'd done. But I had to see that in the Forums, even after reading the "Best map editing practice" Wiki page, there really isn't a description of what that red road really means. The "Recorded via Client" section only briefly mentions a red road, but it sure isn't highlighted like it should be (no pun intended).

Information on Landmarks really isn't even in the Wiki, you need to somehow know to look in the Country Forums to get some guidance, and then you still need to track the WME forum as well to really understand what the Champs want you to do.

It seems to me that all of the available Documentation is written as reference for medium to experienced users, and there isn't a really good "Editing 101" document that walks people through the real basics, explaining some of the rules that aren't as obvious as they should be.

And as a new editor, if you have a question for an AM, it turns out (if I understand it properly) that the list of AMs that display as an overlay on the WME are very out of date, and some of these people may not be active, again, you need to know how to dig through the forums so you can ask a question of an AM.

As I see new editors start out, I often try to PM them to give them some heads up and point them in the right direction, but most of the time they either don't have PMs turned on, or don't read them. Seems like this would be a very good "automated" way to filter out wayward editors. If it is a community process, shouldn't they be required to talk to the community?
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Re: Ranks, Points & the Scoreboard: The Eventual Death of Wa

Postby tckma » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:11 pm

Having joined Waze very recently, I still don't understand why there is such a "game" aspect to the app. I don't care if my in-app avatar is wearing a crown or carrying a sword or whatever. In fact, the person who introduced me to Waze said "the points thing is stupid," and I agree. I have a kind of extreme commute (98 mi round-trip), so the "500 miles a week" candy is easy, for example, but I don't care. Waze was recommended to me because I complained on FB about my commute and about how routing/traffic apps I'd tried up to this point were invariably abysmal. I'm not in it for the competition. I'm in it for an improved and more enjoyable commute.

The thing that hooked me on Waze was the ability to edit the map. I have been a roadgeek since I was a kid, and so this fascinates me. Yes, I have made mistakes, some which were pointed out to me on the forums, and I'm sure many more that have gone unnoticed by others and of which I am unaware. I anticipate that I will make many more mistakes. But I intend to learn from the forum, the wiki, and experience. I understand that few editors will do that.

"Oh but any Joe Schmoe off the street can vandalize the map and make bad edits!" Look at Wikipedia. Look how popular it is. Look how it is vandalized every minute of every hour of every day. Look how novice Wikipedia editors make mistakes they're unaware of and don't understand. The community corrects it. I think the same thing happens here. These are problems inherent in any system where the public can make edits freely. Here in Waze, there are Area Managers and locks and controls in place to make sure an editor knows what they are doing before they try something that could have a deadly result. I have no problem with that.

I haven't reached 5K edits yet, and I've been here less than a month, so I can't speak to whether or not the AM test is easy or superficial. All I know is the immediate area around my house has no AM as of yet, so I'm going to try for it when I have the opportunity. I'm not making edits just to increase my edit count to become an AM that much faster. I have no problem with the test being difficult, if you want to make it so. That will make me all that much more confident that I know what I'm doing when I pass it. If I think the test is too easy, I'll probably say something, and it won't mean as much.

There are people who will make edits just to increase their edit count and become an AM. For that, I say the map editor community should devise better testing (well, I can't really criticize the testing yet) and training materials, with an eye toward continuous improvement of those materials -- this will lead to continuous positive improvement of the map and the non-editing user's experience with Waze. The Waze wiki and Best Map Editing Practices have been great and they have helped me, but there's currently no requirement to read those, and no requirement to read or post to these forums, to have the ability to make edits. The map editor community is going to have to develop online training based on that material, and use that material to devise the test(s).

Just my $0.02.
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