Ferry Mapping page

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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby Timbones » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:05 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
Timbones wrote:Need to add some guidelines about when to map a ferry. Our general rule-of-thumb is to only map ferry crossing where you a) can buy a ticket on arrival, rather than pre-booking, and b) you stay in your vehicle during the crossing.

I don't understand b) staying in your vehicle. Why does that matter?

If you're sat in the vehicle during the crossing, then there's a chance you'll have Waze running and it'll be collecting data, etc. On large ferries where you leave your car, then there's not much point keeping Waze running is there? On a 5-6 hour crossing from France, I'll probably be asleep and the battery wouldn't last that long anyway.

The 'stay in your vehicle' guideline is mainly a way to distinguish between small ferries (which are typically on a short, fixed route and regular crossings) and large ferries (which tend to be much longer and more variable, with fewer crossings).

kentsmith9 wrote:I don't use ferries so I don't understand the multiple comments around the GPS varying and how that matters if the start and end are hard known points along the short to link the road between.

I'm not sure if the drive merge process uses just the start/end points, or if it attempts to snap to the geometry along the length of the segments. If there happens to be a node in the middle of a ferry crossing, then it's unlikely to collect any useful timing data.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby AndyPoms » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:35 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
AndyPoms wrote:Waze has stated that they are working on ways to support Ferry (Fairy) properly. I suggest waiting to write this page until their system comes out.

Also, I've seen serious problems when a Ferry is mapped here in CT - which is why none of ours are mapped at this time.

There are GPS traces that run across Long Island Sound and they get REALLY wide in the middle (just about 5000 meters wide = ~3 miles). I don't think Waze will snap users to that.
Sounds like you saw problems. Can you give a quick summary of the issues for those who may not have seen the threads, or point to the main forum entry that discussed the problems you saw?
It's happened several times - and each time it was shortly after someone added a Ferry route across Long Island Sound (New London, CT <-> Orient Point, NY; Bridgeport, CT <-> Port Jefferson, NY). I'll give one detailed example, but the same general concept happened each time.

  1. Start trip in Hartford, CT (roughly the middle of the state)
  2. Set a route to a destination in New London, CT (on the other side of town from the Ferry Terminal)
  3. Get a REALLY long ETA
  4. Look at suggested route - find that is was routing me
    1. From Hartford to New London
    2. to get on the Ferry to go to New York
    3. Drive a small loop around Orient Point, NY
    4. Get back on the Ferry and go back to New London
    5. Then proceed to the correct destination.
  5. Cancel route, and re-do ensuring that it didn't select the ferry this time.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby russblau » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:39 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:I don't use ferries so I don't understand the multiple comments around the GPS varying and how that matters if the start and end are hard known points along the short to link the road between.

In the "Jolly Drivers" vein, I actually saw a UR a couple of months ago from a user who was using Waze while riding on the Cape May-Lewes Ferry across Delaware Bay (not one where you stay in your car), and complained that the position of the ship didn't match the line on the map!! :)
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby AlanOfTheBerg » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:37 pm

In general, I've said before, and how Washington state has done it, that the ferry crossing should match the type of roadway on either side, whether that is mH or Primary (there are Primary-types county ferries in WA too).

Given that Waze routing still has significant preference for any type of roadway > Primary, this may actually be problematic. Despite the fact that a mH shows a "slow" speed in the ferry lanes, I would bet it is still shown as preferred over faster/longer routes which stay on land.

I wonder if, in general, ferries should not be typed > Primary?
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby Timbones » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:42 pm

The examples I've posted seem to work just fine using service roads.

I'm reluctant to use Freeway or Highway for ferries, as on the map it will look like continuous roadway, which it isn't. Much better to show a physical break in the road, as it is more representative of reality.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby AndyPoms » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:53 am

mrgrumpy wrote:
Timbones wrote:The examples I've posted seem to work just fine using service roads.


Yes, they do. Don't like the idea of using the same road type as Tim says.

I also don't really see the point of mapping the cross-channel ferries other than to 'see' where the ferries go to. I wouldn't use Waze to, necessarily, choose my crossing point.

The Service Road type is supposed to be going away (converted to the Street type). AND Waze has said they are working to support Ferry Routes - I think we need to wait to see what they come up with, especially since if they add a road type called "Ferry", this entire conversation is moot.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby CBenson » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:21 pm

mrgrumpy wrote:I wouldn't use Waze to, necessarily, choose my crossing point.

Out of curiosity, why not?
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby Timbones » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:32 pm

CBenson wrote:
mrgrumpy wrote:I wouldn't use Waze to, necessarily, choose my crossing point.

Out of curiosity, why not?

Because there are other factors to consider such as: cost, special offers, schedules, availability.
The actually crossing time is largely immaterial when you're lounging on deck with a cocktail.

Again, if you can turn up and get onto the next ferry without booking, then it's useful to map in Waze.

If you have to book a specific ferry in advance and work it into your travel itinerary, then Waze isn't going to be able to help.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby iainhouse » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:37 pm

CBenson wrote:
mrgrumpy wrote:I wouldn't use Waze to, necessarily, choose my crossing point.

Out of curiosity, why not?


There are too many variables involved to leave it to a satnav.

There are RORO (roll-on, roll-off) ferries that cover different routes - they may put you nearer your destination but take longer. They all run on different schedules and have different costs. When I used to use them on a motorbike, there was always room for a bike and you could basically turn up & go, but in a car at peak times you might have to wait for a couple of sailings or book in advance. There's also the consideration that they may not run regular crossings 24h/day, or with fewer sailings at night.

There's also the Channel Tunnel (which I've not used myself). That takes a different amount of time again, goes to a different destination and has a different cost.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby nhanway » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:04 pm

Im jumping in here. I am an editior based out of Seattle, WA. We have a lot of ferries in WA especially in Seattle Area. I have been routed on ferries and they work perfectly in Waze.

I agree that we shouldn't spend a lot of time working on a ferry wiki until Waze adds Ferry road type.

But I think it would be helpful to give some guildline on when to and not to map ferries. And if ferries should be mapped how should you map them.

Here is what I have learned to work well in Washington State and learned from this forum:
Ferries should be mapped if:
*You can drive on and drive off. (Passenger Ferries not mapped unless significant GPS trace's causing UR's, then mapped as Private Rd.)
*You can buy tickets whenever (pre booking ferries should not be mapped(or set to private))
*Ferry is accessible to the general public(no private ferries)

*You need to be able to edit AT LEAST both ports. The entire area is preferable.
*Turn on GPS points. It seems like people like to leave Waze on in the ferry. Draw a road on the ACTUAL path the car would take. Draw the road using the GPS points to align with the usual path of the ferry in the water.
*Have the road right up to the part of the dock where it would load.
*Road type should match whats on either side, don't use Private, Freeway or Parking lot road type. If the Ferry is part of the highway system it should be mapped as Major/ Minor Highway
*Draw an entrance segment, make this one way road a "Toll Road" unless the ferry is free. Then make exit road that is not tolled. Don't make the whole ferry segment a toll.

And I haven't seen the following used be for but I guess they would work.
*Don't forget to use time restrictions.
*The first ferry of the day is when it should open.
*The last ferry of the day is when it should close.
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