Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby CBenson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:14 pm

sketch wrote:
dbraughlr wrote:People say that the "same endpoints" error is real. I am on the side of excluding the validation until it is shown that it is a still real problem, especially since the solution seem to be to insert an unneeded node node that will have to be removed after the bug is solved.

It is a bug known to many. There have been multiple threads about it. I can't find them because they were started without an understanding of why Waze was giving such bizarre routes (because we figured it out using those threads). I'm trying to find them now, but I don't know if I will. If you're not willing to take a few champs' words for it, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm not sure what "the error" is. Seem to mostly be a display problem with the routes shown in URs as discussed for example here and here. It may actually effect the user when the endpoint of the route is on one of the two segments that connects the same two junctions.
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Re: [Script] WME Validator 0.6.3 (BETA) / 12.02.2014

Postby CBenson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:31 pm

What's recent? I've seen it in the past three months. Not sure about the past two months.

Issues with two segments connecting the same two junctions goes back to the Cartouche days where the waze error codes could be solved by adding junctions to make sure that the same two segments didn't connect the same two junctions. Unfortunately waze staff has variously at different times told us that the extra nodes are not necessary and also told us to add them to "loop" roads to solve routing issues. There is additional discussion here, but its not so recent either.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby CBenson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:48 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
CBenson wrote:It may actually effect the user when the endpoint of the route is on one of the two segments that connects the same two junctions.

This is one of the main issues with the "same endpoint" that affects end-users directly. The routing server may start the user on the other segment instead of the one the car icon is sitting on. To my knowledge, this bug has not been fixed in the server/app.

Agreed. Another is that waze may not recalculate the route if you deviate onto the other segment.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby CBenson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:02 pm

sketch wrote:
CBenson wrote:I'm not sure what "the error" is. Seem to mostly be a display problem with the routes shown in URs as discussed for example here and here. It may actually effect the user when the endpoint of the route is on one of the two segments that connects the same two junctions.

Your post, the second post, in the first thread you linked shows a user that followed the "display bug" route rather than the TTS route. I don't think it's reasonable to consider something as important as the route line being displayed incorrectly is so minor as to be considered merely a "display bug". Especially when the user isn't using sound. Is the user more likely to follow the arrow in the corner, or the route line on the screen?

Understood. But I've never actually been able to get confirmation from a user that they were actually following the route line in a conversation on a UR like this. I certainly can't say it doesn't happen, just that I haven't been able to verify it. On the other hand I can say that sometimes the purple route line in the UR is not the same as the purple line in the client, because that has happened to me. Notwithstanding, I think it is worthwhile to add the extra junctions at this point.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby CBenson » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:57 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
sketch wrote:Notice the lack of the "keep left" instruction onto the freeway.

It's because the angle wasn't steep enough at the time. Now it does do as you'd expect and say "stay left".

I don't think any angle would give a stay left instruction if the two segments in the permalink were ramp segments. The road type continuity would make the ramp to the highway the best continuation and suppress the instruction.
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Re: Two-way Ramps vs. Routing [Split from WME Validator]

Postby CBenson » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:53 am

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:
CBenson wrote:
AlanOfTheBerg wrote:It's because the angle wasn't steep enough at the time. Now it does do as you'd expect and say "stay left".

I don't think any angle would give a stay left instruction if the two segments in the permalink were ramp segments. The road type continuity would make the ramp to the highway the best continuation and suppress the instruction.

It shows a stay left in livemap instructions.

But its no longer a ramp segment so there is not currently road type continuity.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby dbraughlr » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:21 pm

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:Ramp segments like this are all over and will stay that way because there is no good reason not to.

The rumor was that two-way ramps have caused routing issues.

I don't know the history of the rumor and have no good way to disprove or prove it.

A test case is a two-way ramp of considerable length (say, one-half mile) connected to two short one-way ramps connected to the freeway. When the on-ramp is restricted (closed), does Waze route the wrong way for a short distance over the off ramp to reach the highway?

The problem is that if a turn is permitted onto a ramp, the ramp should lead somewhere. When the one of the two short ramps is closed, the two-way portion might have to be made one-way in the direction that is still open to prevent routing problems.
With a one-way ramp, the entire ramp is either open or closed; thus Waze never encounters a dead-end while traversing a ramp.
Last edited by dbraughlr on Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby dbraughlr » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:39 pm

SuperDave1426 wrote:I really think this should be looked into more fully before making a change to the ramp direction check.

I didn't say that and don't want to. But how did the validation get in there?

People say that the "same endpoints" error is real. I am on the side of excluding the validation until it is shown that it is a still real problem, especially since the solution seem to be to insert an unneeded node node that will have to be removed after the bug is solved.

The dead-end U-turn seems to be a true bug. But having editors fix the dead-ends one-by-one seems like a poor way to solve the problem.


As for sketch's comments: I didn't start the rumor; so to suggest that it is based on my misunderstanding is entirely your misunderstanding. I'm just the messenger. You'll have to do your homework if you want to chide the originator of the rumor.
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby dbraughlr » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:55 pm

sketch wrote:If you're not willing to take a few champs' words for it, I don't know what else to

I do. You clearly misunderstood that I was talking about two-way ramps.


sketch wrote:All I'm saying is that your understanding of the penalty system may be wrong. Mis-understanding. I didn't blame you for it.


What basis do you have to suspect that my understanding might be wrong?
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Re: two-way ramp rumor

Postby dbraughlr » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:49 am

sketch wrote:
dbraughlr wrote:What basis do you have to suspect that my understanding might be wrong?

Four and a half years on Waze and its forums have given me a pretty good understanding of how it all works.


You ignored my question. In an earlier post, you made an absurd statement based on your ignorance of me. I'll accept this as your retraction and apology.

sketch wrote:
dbraughlr wrote:An unsubstantiated rumor is not a substantial basis for a Validator warning.

At least we agree on this much. :!:
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