Ferry Mapping page

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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby KB_Steveo » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:23 am

sketch wrote:
KB_Steveo wrote:If there are no other options besides using a ferry, is it necessary to add a schedule/restrictions? Won't Waze route you through a restriction if there are no other options anyway?

No.
OK. I just didn't know if there were any known bugs that Waze would still route you that way (ex. Waze will/would route you through closures if you have your client set to "shortest route"). My main deal was that I wouldn't want to put in the effort if Waze is going to disregard my work.

sketch wrote:
KB_Steveo wrote:I don't see the benefit of setting the restrictions in this case. Either the ferry is running, or it isn't - if you can't figure out that a ferry in a vacation destination area isn't running at 3AM, that's on you. :)

We should do our best. Ferry timetables are not common knowledge and not always readily ascertainable. Why stop at mediocrity? Do we not want Waze to be the best? Is it not better that it says "Route not possible" when you can't leave the island?
They have timetables when you buy your tickets to go to the island :twisted: But I digress - vacationers in Door County definitely turn off their brains when they're there... I'll put the timetables on my list of things to do :D
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Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:11 am

We have had a blank page for Ferries ever since I joined. Recently user Panther37 proposed a number of steps outlined on this talk page.

I have not spent any time on mapping ferries, so I did not want to pass judgment on these steps. I had previously thought that with time restrictions we could solve ferries with just that feature setting for both segment directions. Separately set toll if present.

I had not considered the other points Panther37 proposed, but many of them make sense. However the parking lot road seems to be a problem and unnecessary since the routing engine will shortly determine the average speed through that area and set the appropriate routing.

If we want to have this info on a separate page, that is fine and if we want to include it anywhere else, we can transclude it as desired.

Panther37 wrote:Here is how I have made ferries:
1. You need to be able to edit AT LEAST both ports. The entire area is preferable.
2. Turn on GPS points. It seems like people like to leave Waze on in the ferry.
3. Draw a road on the ACTUAL path the car would take.
3.1. Have the road right up to the part of the dock where it would load.
3.2. Draw the road using the GPS points to align with the usual path of the ferry in the water.
4. Road type should be "Parking Lot Road" because, ferries are slow. If there is a "High-Speed" ferry, upgrade the road.
5. Make sure the road is a "Toll Road" unless the ferry is free.
6. Don't forget to use time restrictions.
6.1. The first ferry of the day is when it should open.
6.2. The last ferry of the day is when it should close.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:56 am

AndyPoms wrote:Waze has stated that they are working on ways to support Ferry (Fairy) properly. I suggest waiting to write this page until their system comes out.

Also, I've seen serious problems when a Ferry is mapped here in CT - which is why none of ours are mapped at this time.

There are GPS traces that run across Long Island Sound and they get REALLY wide in the middle (just about 5000 meters wide = ~3 miles). I don't think Waze will snap users to that.

I think we need some plan for these routes. Other countries are supporting them now and I get the impression they are working at some level.

Sounds like you saw problems. Can you give a quick summary of the issues for those who may not have seen the threads, or point to the main forum entry that discussed the problems you saw?

Why does not snapping to the route suggest we don't draw it in? I would think having something spanning the water to enable Waze to route across is better than it always suggesting go around or no route possible.


CBenson wrote:I agree that the suggestions, except the suggestion to use parking lot road type make sense.

I also agree the parking lot road type is a problem, but I am not sure it matters what we use from the standard list of routing roads. Seems it should match the road types on either side, but calling it a freeway does not meet the current definitions.

Timbones wrote:Need to add some guidelines about when to map a ferry. Our general rule-of-thumb is to only map ferry crossing where you a) can buy a ticket on arrival, rather than pre-booking, and b) you stay in your vehicle during the crossing. None of the major Channel crossings meet either of these criteria, and so should not be mapped. The GPS tends to vary wildly too, making Waze pretty useless.

I don't understand b) staying in your vehicle. Why does that matter?
I don't use ferries so I don't understand the multiple comments around the GPS varying and how that matters if the start and end are hard known points along the short to link the road between.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:51 pm

This generally sounds good. I think we should also list when and why not to add the Ferries discussed that cause problems like crossings longer than a few hours, must purchase ticket in advance, etc. We should also note in there that this feature will likely change with greater Ferry support in a future version (coming soon). :)
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:15 am

Nice work. I hope you don't mind that I did some formatting to match similar Wiki pages. I also added a Under construction message box to alert users who might happen to stumble onto this page before we are done.

I added some questions I think we should consider answering within the page and a couple of suggestions.

If you think any of my changes are incorrect let's fix them, but I think I have it captured based on this thread.

I did change the order of the decision tree for when to map ferries to start with the list of when not to map them. This is similar to the format we used for when NOT to split roads.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:31 am

CBenson wrote:I'm don't understand what not mapping "Ferries with no set schedule" is intended to address. We have a few ferries that cross small rivers that run whenever a car shows up. Seems like they should be mapped.

The intent I understood was a "Ferry that had no set schedule AND could be a long wait like 30+ minutes." Maybe they do not exist so no need to worry about them.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:42 am

Nice work so far.
nhanway wrote:I cant figure how to make step 3. move over to line up with the others... Currently its all the way over on the right... So if you can fix that, GREAT!

Does this look like you wanted?

nhanway wrote:I also added a section for future ferry support. Its full of Information I have gathered from the forum and from personal experience. Add/Edit that as necessary as well.

I converted into more objective terminology to follow other Wiki pages better.

nhanway wrote:Also maybe it would be a good idea to add a list of Ferry Experts at the bottom. Editors that have mapped and have a great deal of experience with ferries. Like myself. And include links to there contact information.

I wonder if that should be put either on the talk page (once we move this to the live page) and/or here in the forum. (IMO) I don't think the main page for Ferries would be appropriate.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:49 am

It looks great on my side. I added another internally formatting template. It may fix what you are seeing. Can you post a screen shot?
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:50 pm

nhanway wrote:The 3 in step 3 is in the correct location now. I'm not sure what was happening but is all good now.

Like I said I added a formatting template that for some reason was not required in my view, but was for yours. That template should prevent it from being a problem either way now.

nhanway wrote:So any objections to moving all this from the talk page to the actual "how to map ferries" page?

I do not, but I would recommend we rename the new page to simply "Ferries" as a more general page name. That way we can add other information on Ferries that is not necessarily how to map them.

When creating a new page you have two options:
1. Go into edit mode for the page, copy the content, and then create a brand new page with the desired name. The result is a first page entry in the history with the entire content as one entry. The history for the changes are no longer present, but since this page was a collaboration in the forum I don't think it is useful because nhanway was making changes on behalf of himself and other inputs. This method leaves the original temporary page in tact which is not good, so we just need to delete it. I can do that after the other page is created.

2. Use the Move option to effectively rename the page. This can be done between namespaces like we need here going from the Talk page to the Main namespace. This will keep the history of all prior edits and will not require deleting the old page since it is just renamed.

So I propose #1 for this page as explained above.
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Re: Ferry Mapping page

Postby kentsmith9 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:51 am

Excellent. I reset the old page to a redirect to the new in case someone searches that exact name.

I went through and added a number of internal Wikilinks to the new Ferries page. That point out a number of missing redirects to what I thought were commonly searched terms for other operations. For all of those I created new redirects to the appropriate Wiki section.

The section on Future Ferry Support is better placed on the talk page since it could inspire discussion. I moved it there and also put a link from the main page.

The talk page also links back to this forum entry.
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