Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable roads

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby davielde » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:18 pm

sketch wrote:I don't think I can think of any situation where a user might upgrade a road type without approval.

...where a knowledgeable, *trained* user... ;)
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:39 pm

Hah, what I meant was "where a user might be justified in upgrading a road type without approval." Sorry for being imprecise.

That's where the broad latitude comes into play — where a champ or RC could allow a more experienced editor to make some judgment calls. That's not "without approval" as far as I'm concerned.

Where practicable, such changes should be locked at a relatively high level.

If it isn't approved — and isn't obviously vandalism — a champ/RC who notices it or to whom it is reported should contact the editor and ask why the change was made. If it's vandalism it can be reverted without question, of course.
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Road Types (USA) – Exceptions

Postby davielde » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:50 pm

sketch wrote:I don't envision that champs/RCs will have too hard a time understanding why other champs/RCs have made these determinations. Perhaps oversight via posting all such determinations to a state's Wiki or forum will be sufficient.

That has worked well in the few cases that I have experienced. Documenting any exceptions is extremely important, particularly for CMs who do work outside of their region and would otherwise be unfamiliar with any local considerations. A number of exceptions such as jughandles or the Michigan Left would initially be local ones anyway, so it may be difficult to build a "complete" exception system from the start nationally. Instead, there is likely much quicker testing and potential adoption at the state level, and eventually documentation on the state's wiki page--certainly if a Champ initiates it.

It would be important, however, for Champs to reign in exceptions too (i.e. "Ramps should not be used as at-grade connectors, but please see this list of 75 exceptions...).
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:38 pm

sketch wrote:Kent, I will do that. Is there a thread concerning that at-grade connectors page? Seems like we should add jughandles, unnumbered exits which are signed for more than just the name of the immediate street to which the exit goes, and Michigan lefts to it. I think it's only been discussed on the Michigan forum, but I think the MUTI page is ready for inclusion into the Wiki — along with a redirect from "Michigan left".

No current forum threads specific to this topic that I know about. Found these two older ones that I think would be OK to resurrect or link to a new thread. I did not read all the way through them, but they are probably appropriate to consider.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby qwaletee » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:51 am

Hi, sketch,

It may require more.

1) You don't want low ranked users "shopping" for answers from different champs who might be more/less sympathetic to their cause

2) Conversely, though, there should be an avenue to say "I disagree, I would like a second opinion"

3) We need to decide whether every decision needs to be level 6 or can sometims be lower

4) We need to decide if there are standard exceptions in very high or very low desnsity areas (there's already been some discusson of urban and rural areas)

5) We may want to allow more self-determination in cases where the routing engine has been making bad decisions based on road type

6) We may want to determine if all cases are "may I" or are there some potential "forgive me" allowances

7) We may need a trialing system
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby nhanway » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:53 am

I too thank you sketch for you efforts.

PhantomSoul wrote:Maybe I have the objective of the road types totally wrong, but if they are for trying to single out roads appropriate for use in the middle of trips of certain distances, then urban arterials are a bad metaphor for Waze highways.


I think if the FC class is adopted nation wide, the guidlines for "what a freeway is" or "What a major highway is" outlined here will become obsolete. If every road is classified in the FC maps then there is no need to have a page that explain what roads meet the criteria of being a certain class. Make sense. Ill try to explain it better:

In areas that no editor has ever touched all the roads are streets. We used the above page to determine the class of the road. But sense there is a national standard for classifying roads (FC maps), there is no need to determine the class of the roads ourselves.

@Sketch: I am an active editor in Washington. The states standard is to type roads according to the FC Map. I have outlined the standards in Washington's Wiki Page. Seattle also uses the FC map. One thing I have noticed is WSDOT's FC map changes some roads class when they go from Urban Area to Rural Area and Vice versa. I think this should be considered with making the table:
sketch wrote:
Functional class / highway systemWaze road type
FC: Interstates
FC: Other Freeways and Expressways (some)
HS: Interstate
Freeway
FC: Other Freeways and Expressways (others)
FC: Other Principal Arterials
HS: U.S. Highways
Major Highway
FC: Other Arterials
HS: State Highways
Minor Highway
FC: Major Collectors
FC: Minor Collectors
HS: County Routes
Primary Street
FC: LocalStreet


Take a look at the table I made for Washington's Wiki Page.

Overall I hope those editors who are not a fan of the FC map should strongly consider it. It works great, coming from and active editor and driver in a state that follows the FC map.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby AndyPoms » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:50 am

nhanway wrote:@Sketch: I am an active editor in Washington. The states standard is to type roads according to the FC Map. I have outlined the standards in Washington's Wiki Page. Seattle also uses the FC map. One thing I have noticed is WSDOT's FC map changes some roads class when they go from Urban Area to Rural Area and Vice versa.
I can't find the legend/key for the WSDOT FC Map, do they different types between Urban and Rural areas? In 2009 US DOT removed the urban/rural split and simplified things. The only thing that didn't line up was there was only one type of "Urban Collector" and there were "Rural Major Collector" & "Rural Minor Collector". "Urban Collector" & "Rural Major Collector" became "Major Collector".

In Connecticut, the most likely change at an Urban/Rural border was a "Principal Arterial - Other" changing to a "Minor Arterial". In our first version of the translation, we actually traced the route back to urban areas on both ends & if it changed back we kept it the same. The version that was proposed last year, changed the default type of "Minor Arterial", but we haven't implemented it yet because we are waiting for feedback from Ehud.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby HavanaDay » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:47 pm

To add my opinion to this topic, if I read the wiki entry and these posts correctly, I would like to make the following changes/clarifications:

US Hwy Bus Routes - Should not automatically be major but minor minimally.
State Hwy Bus Routes - Should not automatically be minor but minimally classed as primary.

We also have some US Alt routes in NC that I have a tough time deciding what there function should be. So some sort of input/thoughts would be great for that for me.

I will concur with sketch's assessment that going to a FC class based system greatly approves routing. As an example SC barely had anything in the rural areas touched regarding road classification. So a trip from NC to FL would basically be a sticky to interstates and some extent major highways. I took some time to add FC's to the counties I travel on a back way. It is roughly the same amount of time (because of distance) as the freeways. But, after making the changes I am no longer married to the freeways and major highways. It still tries to route me on the freeways for a certain amount of time (Understandable given that the freeway was x minutes faster) but after the next few miles it finally figures out and routes the quickest way down the back way.

I also believe if we go straight FC that would cause less "exceptions" to be had. I really see the advantages of both systems, but I think overall the "hybrid" system has worked pretty well in most cases.

What needs to be stressed in the hybrid system is the word minimally. As in a state highway is minimally classed as a minor highway in Waze.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm

HavanaDay wrote:To add my opinion to this topic, if I read the wiki entry and these posts correctly, I would like to make the following changes/clarifications:

US Hwy Bus Routes - Should not automatically be major but minor minimally.
State Hwy Bus Routes - Should not automatically be minor but minimally classed as primary.

We also have some US Alt routes in NC that I have a tough time deciding what there function should be. So some sort of input/thoughts would be great for that for me.

Indeed, I will include that. That's my intent.

What needs to be stressed in the hybrid system is the word minimally. As in a state highway is minimally classed as a minor highway in Waze.

Indeed true. This is the basis on which the hybrid system works. I will add some bold print and flashy lights (maybe kidding about the latter) for emphasis.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby CBenson » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:44 pm

I believe that this is a worthwhile effort.

I would revise

The following roads are to be classified, at minimum, as Minor Highway:
Roads classified in FHWA's functional classification as Other Arterials.
Roads in state, D.C., and territorial highway systems.


to read

The following roads are to be classified, at minimum, as Minor Highway:
Roads classified in FHWA's functional classification as Other Arterials or Minor Arterials.
Roads signed according to a state, D.C., or territorial highway system.


My concern with "Other Arterial" is that some functional lists use the terms "other principal arterial" and "minor arterial." In those lists the word "other" only appears with "principal" which could be confusing when determining what "other arterials" are.

With regard to state numbering systems, one issue that hasn't been addressed is the difference between official designation and how the road is actually signed. In my experience, the signage deviates from "official designation" for clarity and to better reflect reality on the ground. So where signage conflicts with "official designation," I suggest following the signage. In Maryland every road that is the responsibility of the state highway administration to maintain has a Maryland route number. But typically if the road is not a significant route from point A to point B, the road is not signed with the route number (and can be classed a local road by the MD SHA). Similarly my recollection in Pennsylvania is that many roads are given 4 digit numbers, but these 4 digit route numbers are not used in the keystone route number signs and thus should not be considered minor highways. So to me what really matters is the sign on the road.
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