Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable roads

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby txemt » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:01 am

banished wrote:CR-xx = Primary Street


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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:37 am

Sketch, I took the liberty to make some adjustments to the Ramp section based on our discussions on ramps so far. I put up a version of that page here here to review. I was especially worried about the wording of the double negative section of when not to use ramps. I think this proposal addresses that possible confusion point.

I added the other two unique properties for Ramps that I know about. If there are others we should add them. If my additions are incorrect, we should fix them.

Note the red links are to pages that do not yet exist, but they will when (or shortly after) we implement this page. When you are in edit more of the page, you will see the comment codes for other notes I think we should consider as well.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby AndyPoms » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:15 am

banished wrote:
bgodette wrote:
banished wrote:Out-of-area editor: "It's a primary street according to FC."
Local editor: "No, it's a minor highway. I know, because I drive it frequently."

Sorry, but in this case the state's DOT wins.

I'd be uncertain about accepting poor routing as the result of a strict adherence to FC (or any other methodology, including the one used in the Southeast) as "winning."
The way I see it, in this case, the local editor needs to justify their position. Something to the effect of "It's a minor highway because it connects between X & Y, both FC minor highways, has the same lane configuration as both of them & the same speed limits as well". That shows very similar Functional Properties of the road & is a justification for an upgrade.

banished wrote:
bgodette wrote:
banished wrote:Florida doesn't even have a web-based FC map.

Yes it does. It's here and it's been in the Wiki for a while. However that site does not appear to work from IP addresses that GeoIP from out of state. Last time it worked for me was when I was there last December. F.I.T. may also have GIS resources usable with ArcGIS.

It doesn't work in-state, either, so effectively there is not a Florida FC reference we could use. (EDIT: Site page is responding sporadically, now.) I wrote the DOT yesterday requesting a URL for Florida’s FC system. The read receipt came back today. Standing by for a response and will advise all if I get one.
I just got it to load in one click up here in CT... and it seems to be responding to the menu selections & zooming, etc... The legend indicates they are still using the Pre-2009 urban/rural split types.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:47 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:Sketch, I took the liberty to make some adjustments to the Ramp section based on our discussions on ramps so far. I put up a version of that page here here to review. I was especially worried about the wording of the double negative section of when not to use ramps. I think this proposal addresses that possible confusion point.

Thanks Kent this looks very good. I didn't edit the text for Ramp much if any because I didn't intend to change the rule.

I was looking at that section and was wondering why the language "grade-separated interchange" isn't used at all. It might provide a good contrast to "at-grade". I added a caption to the expressway image under Highways that uses that language, also.

---
For what it's worth, I got that Florida FC map to load (slowly, but eventually).

dbraughlr's point is well-taken. Disputes may arise in anything. The idea that a better-defined system will have more, rather than fewer, disputes is preposterous.

If this system works nationwide, unmodified, then deviation from the standard won't be necessary AT ALL. The only deviations I've made from this system are mostly inconsequential, basically places where a separate road is used effectively as an at-grade connector. That's it, and I've implemented it in two major metropolitan areas — one of which I did entirely on my own — along with much of the surrounding countryside (and bayous).


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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby CBenson » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:19 pm

Do we need to define at-grade connector? Specifically are roads at different grades required to meet the definition of "freeway" and "ramp." This comes up for roads like this. In this case there are no intersections that permit traffic to cross US-50. US-50 has an unbroken median. This combined with the fact that there are only limited access points to US-50 - that is the businesses do not have driveways that are directly served by US-50, makes me think this is a freeway. However, Duke St, Thomson Creek Rd, Castle Marina Rd, Cox Neck Rd, Dominion Rd, Chester Station Ln, Piney Creek Rd, S Piney Rd, Dundee Ave, Main St, Piney Narrows Rd etc all provide access to US-50 at junctions where there is no grade separation, because there is simply no access provided from one side of US-50 to other on these roads. There are BGSs at these exits on US-50 just like at the grade-separated interchanges.

So in the freeway definition it is stated that there should be "no at-grade intersections." I think that US-50 in this stretch meets the requirement for no at-grade intersections and the exit and entrance roads are not at-grade connectors and are thus properly ramps. However, given the current guidance and the proposed guidance if you interpret these access points "at-grade" then the US-50 would be a major highway and the exits and entrances should not be ramps.

I would state that if you can't cross the highway without either passing over or under the highway then all exits and entrances with acceleration and deceleration lanes along that highway should be considered "grade-separated."
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby qwaletee » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:33 pm

CBenson wrote:Do we need to define at-grade connector? Specifically are roads at different grades required to meet the definition of "freeway" and "ramp." This comes up for roads like this. In this case there are no intersections that permit traffic to cross US-50. US-50 has an unbroken median. This combined with the fact that there are only limited access point to US-50 - that is the businesses do not have driveways that are directly served by US-50, makes me think this is a freeway. However, Duke St, Thomson Creek Rd, Castle Marina Rd, Cox Neck Rd, Dominion Rd, Chester Station Ln, Piney Creek Rd, S Piney Rd, Dundee Ave, Main St, Piney Narrows Rd etc all provide access to US-50 at junctions where there is no grade separation, because there is simply no access provided from one side of US-50 to other on these roads. There are BGSs at these exits on US-50 just like at the grade-separated interchanges.

So in the freeway definition it is stated that there should be "no at-grade intersections." I think that US-50 in this stretch meets the requirement for no at-grade intersections and the exit and entrance roads are not at-grade connectors and are thus properly ramps. However, given the current guidance and the proposed guidance if you interpret these access points "at-grade" then the US-50 would be a major highway and the exits and entrances should not be ramps.

I would state that if you can't cross the highway without either passing over or under the highway then all exits and entrances with acceleration and deceleration lanes along that highway should be considered "grade-separated."


Well, since the FC juggernaut seems to be rolling merrily along, what is its functional classification?
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby CBenson » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:48 pm

It is classed as "other freeway expressway." Thus you would need to apply:
The following roads shall be classified as Freeway :
* * *
Roads classified in FHWA's functional classification as Other Freeways and Expressways which meet the following criteria:
Entrance via ramps only, typically with acceleration zones.
Exit via ramps only, typically with deceleration zones.
No at-grade intersections.
No stop lights (except sometimes on ramps).
No stop signs.


Thus, the question becomes: what is an "at-grade intersection."
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby davielde » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:58 pm

CBenson wrote:So in the freeway definition it is stated that there should be "no at-grade intersections." I think that US-50 in this stretch meets the requirement for no at-grade intersections and the exit and entrance roads are not at-grade connectors and are thus properly ramps. However, given the current guidance and the proposed guidance if you interpret these access points "at-grade" then the US-50 would be a major highway and the exits and entrances should not be ramps.

I would state that if you can't cross the highway without either passing over or under the highway then all exits and entrances with acceleration and deceleration lanes along that highway should be considered "grade-separated."

Isn't your US-50 example covered by the at-grade exception for signed, numbered exits--meaning that it already is not truly considered "at-grade" from a wiki standpoint, and the freeway definition of "no at-grade intersections" still holds? Here is a similar configuration where there is no grade separation with I-75, but it is a signed, numbered exit.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby CBenson » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:14 pm

Good point, that would justify keeping the exits and entrances as ramp type.

But that logic would also confirm the exits and entrances as "at-grade connectors" that meet the exception to be typed as ramps. I could certainly see some editors making the argument that would mean that the freeway definition of "no at-grade intersections" is not met as you are applying the rules of "at-grade connectors" to the exits and entrances. That argument would result in US-50 being typed as a major highway here.

The advantage I-75 has is that it is an interstate. Thus under the proposal it is a freeway and thus all entrances to and from the freeway are defined as ramps.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby sketch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:32 pm

There's a nuanced difference between the definitions here.

A freeway has no at-grade crossings and no intersections (and no immediate access to adjacent property). There are no at-grade crossings on US-50 there. An "intersection" requires that the roads themselves intersect, not via ramps, but on their own. So, those aren't "intersections", and that's a freeway. There's nothing to stop a ramp from being at-grade.

For at-grade connectors, if we don't want to have to rely on the "signed, numbered exit" exception (which should be expanded to encompass all BGSes regardless of number), we can either (1) define it circularly, saying that every road providing entrance or exit along a freeway must be a ramp, or (2) change the definition of "at-grade connector" slightly, to include only those at at-grade crossings or intersections. The latter (2) is logically more sound, but then what do we do with situations like this?
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