[New Page] Median U-turn intersection

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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:40 pm

Perhaps reference and/or crib form http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/re ... ety/09059/

Note that it gives an alternative name of J-turn, which may be more approachable for lay editors.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:25 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:Normally the Wikipedia pages use the technical name for an item and then on the page they say "also known as" and add the others. All the names can redirect to the page [[Median U-turn intersection]].

I believe we have the following choices:
  • [[Median U-turn intersection (MUTI)]]
  • [[Median U-turn intersection]]
  • [[MUTI]]
  • [[Michigan left]]

I still propose we use [[Median U-turn intersection]] for this page.


I'm OK with following many WP MOS-type guidelines, but we always need to bear in mind the different purposes and audiences.

When I first came on board, I had some prior knowledge of mapping (because I'm just crazy), and I still found the Waze wiki unapproachable. I would like to always bear in mind that our first audience is newbie editors, and our second audience is experienced editors who are encountering something they are either have had trouble grasping or unfamiliar with (or need a refresher).

That said, how do you think this should be handled in particular?
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:15 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
qwaletee wrote:I'm OK with following many WP MOS-type guidelines, but we always need to bear in mind the different purposes and audiences.

When I first came on board, I had some prior knowledge of mapping (because I'm just crazy), and I still found the Waze wiki unapproachable. I would like to always bear in mind that our first audience is newbie editors, and our second audience is experienced editors who are encountering something they are either have had trouble grasping or unfamiliar with (or need a refresher).

You are absolutely correct. We have not spent much time with the basic pages. I only recently started working on a replacement for the opening USA page that has not been touched in two years. Do you want to help me work on it? I forgot many of the frustrations when I first started. Maybe you can help me remember them?

For this page I am happy to have you also look at the page from the perspective of how new users might see it (not saying you are new now ;) ).


Sure, though I may be time limited. Let's break up the task into manageable chunks, and I'll grab a few.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:19 pm

davielde wrote:
MeridianHills wrote:One thing that could be added into the wiki for the new Median U-Turn Intersection
https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-86.06 ... 01&env=usa
MUTI's where the turn around segments have cross traffic from the left & right.

That may not be a bad idea, particular since there are a number of odd situations that may arise where the Michigan Left instruction does not apply to all traffic crossing the physical segment. In that case, there is sometimes a need for a "logical" separate segment.

Here's a fairly common one where the median crossover serves as the entrance for an intersecting street, where it was important to preserve the turn instruction with the proper street name, and I've come across two or three other things similar to it.

To eliminate as much confusion as possible, perhaps we could have a small "guide" with a table and sample pics for different configurations, similar to what is done for the Road Type Guide on the roundabout page.


I think I would get confused if I was taking that drive, no matter which one of the three streets I was headed for, but maybe that's just me, from a fairly J-turn-free part of the world.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:01 pm

But having it named seems inconsistent with general ramp rules. The naming seems there to maintain the illusion of left turn at the previous intersection, but I don't know how much good it does. Especially since it might sometimes result in an announcement about the cross street (your real target) as you approach that cross street. That might seem like you are being asked to make an illegal turn.

Changing the hundreds or thousands of these examples may not be practical, but I would have left them all unnamed to begin with. I'd still consider leaving this example unnamed, because even though it is inconsistent with all those other J's, the vast majority of those other J's don't have the complications of this one. Trying to meet the convention is forcing you into this weird dual segment, which is introducing ugliness to save purity.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:16 pm

There are no signs there that I can see, so you're not "following the BGS," which is how we usually name ramps. We make exceptions where there are multiple splits or crosses in short succession, and the readouts could become confusing. Here you are using an "implied" secondary name of "to Wilson."


I don't see how MUTCD plays into this at all. Are you saying you are following the naming that SHOULD be there per MUTCD but is currently missing from the road?

The chief issue you raise with an unnamed segment here is that it would say "left to SAME ROAD YOU ARE ON," though that could be mitigated by naming the split roadway with E and W qualifiers. Alternatively, the segment could be named U-turn, or a combined segment could be U-turn / Jackson Plz.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby qwaletee » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:58 am

sketch,

I don't agree with the single-page-per-intersection idea. We don't use it for limited access interchanges -- there's one big page for all the types (diamond, cloverleaf, etc.). Each of the types has a short description and a graphic example. It gets everything tidilly in one place so the editor looking up the information doesn't have to dig three or more pages deep (JSG > ltd access IC > diamond).

You have also proposed to have a direct link on JSG. Again, we don't have diamond or cloverleaf mentioned directly on JSG -- naming every single type would end up being too much. We just have the single mention to see the ltd access IC page (though I think we need to have a para there explaining what a ltd access IC is and perhaps one or two brief examples).

Unless you want to totally rethink JSG and how we structure the information as a whole, please don't do this.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:02 pm

Whether or not a second instruction is used should depend on the physical characteristics of the U turn. That's why we use a second instruction everywhere in Michigan but not everywhere in Louisiana.

  • Detroit area: yes second instruction. Traffic exits at an 80–90° angle.
  • New Orleans suburbs: no second instruction. Traffic exits at ~45° angle.
  • New Orleans: yes second instruction. Traffic exits at 90° angle.

The two things that will apply to every instance of an MUTI are the ramp type and the initial (turn left) instruction. The two things that will vary based on application will be the second instruction (above) and the naming. But they should vary differently, I believe:

  • Naming standards should be consistent within a state or at least within a metropolitan area. MUTIs in Detroit should be named like the ones in the suburbs even if Detroit does not sign its MUTIs as diligently as the suburbs do. MUTIs in New Orleans are signed "U turn" even though New Orleans doesn't typically sign U turns because every such U turn is signed as such in the suburbs (at least in Jefferson Parish, which comprises the bulk of New Orleans's suburbs). People driving throughout the area will expect the same type of instruction throughout.
  • Geometry standards for the exit node should be set according to the geometry of the U turn segment itself, but typically a particular locality will have its own standards for their construction. It's a factual determination — if every such segment in an area/state is designed the same way, set a standard for the area/state; otherwise, set standards per municipality, whether published or de facto, or simply set the geometry per-intersection or per-road.

As far as I'm concerned an RCUT is a type of MUTI.

Louisiana has installed a bunch of RCUTs on US-90 in southwestern La.; they've taken to calling them "J turns".
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:09 pm

Are you saying this exception should be described and explained briefly (incl. the justification for it) on the at-grade connectors page, but explained in detail on its own page? I'd agree.

Jughandles should be handled similarly, unless it is decided that they don't merit their own page; then we could just redirect "Jughandle(s)" to the AGC page. But this can be discussed with its own thread or in the general AGC page thread that's active right now.
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Re: [New Page] Median U-turn intersection

Postby sketch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:47 pm

Indeed, although "J-turn" applies only to RCUTs and not MUTIs.

FWIW, Wikipedia uses "Superstreet" for the RCUT page name, and "Michigan left" for the MUTI page name. I really wouldn't mind using both of those here... I had no trouble referring to Michigan lefts as such years before I ever went to Michigan. The abbreviations seem a little hypertechnical.
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