[Updated] House Numbers in WME

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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:17 pm

tonestertm wrote:...including the speech about deleting old search.

I've just responded to a UR from a large estate. The Google pin is on the main house, as usual. But the driveway gate is NOT located at the closest part of the address street. It's much further away.

Naturally, Waze+Google positioning routes this reporter to the part of the street closest to the house, bypassing the gate by a long shot.

I don't plan to move the Google pin because I'd have to move it quite far from the house and that's not how Google likes to do things. I also don't want to add a private driveway because it will mess up routing for the neighbor.

So -- perfect application for a Waze House Number! I adjusted the house number as per instructions and moved the stop point to the driveway gate. I made sure to tweak a bit of road nearby to wake up a tile change. But, how does Waze deal with an old Google position and a new Waze house number?

  • Is it necessary to remove the address from the nav list and favorites under these conditions, when the Google pin has not changed but is rather being superseded entirely?
  • If the reporter removes the address from the nav list and favorites, then searches for the address again, are they guaranteed to get the Waze House Number provided it's been "touched" and the tiles have updated?
  • If so, does the Google position then become completely unused by and irrelevant to Waze (except for users who haven't cleared the stale address from cache)?

I'm guessing yes, yes, and yes... :?
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Thanks! OK, I have added the following item to the "Caveats/Warnings" section of the House Numbers article. There was an warning already there about app behavior, so it seemed another warning about app behavior would not be out of place.
The Waze app will not use a new or modified Waze house number if it already has the corresponding address in its navigation and/or favorites lists. The user must remove any existing instances of an address before the app will obtain new position data for that address.


By the way, a UR reporter recently complained that he had waited six months (!!!) for an address fix made by another editor to work, and it hadn't. I suggested he remove the address from the app and load it in again. A few days later -- "yay!".

But what a shock. I always assumed that the addresses stored in the app had some kind of time-to-live. If they do, however, it is apparently longer than six months.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:01 am

[EDIT: Preamble regarding confusion removed, crossed posts.]

New questions:

1. Should the text I added to the House Numbers article be removed? If removing the entries from nav list & favorites is unnecessary then the text I added is wrong. However, in a test I conducted just now, searching for an already-listed destination adds a new item to the nav list that appears identical to the existing item. I can't see at first glance how to discriminate between them, but maybe I'm missing something. How will I know which one is old and which one is new if I don't remove the old one? And, what good does it do a typical user to leave the old search result in place even if there were some way to discriminate?

2. In order to get to the part of the app where one can select Google as a data source, one must scroll to the bottom of the default results screen and select "More results for xxx". So rephrasing my question: once the House Number is in Waze and updated etc., is the Google result for a street address -- provided a Waze match is found -- always relegated to the "More results for..." process?

What I am trying to understand is what exactly to tell the UR reporter.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:58 am

sketch wrote:Regarding 1: while it's not necessary to remove the listing from your previous destinations, it may still be advisable, for the reasons you listed.

FYI all, here is the revised language for the new item in the House Numbers article:
The Waze app cannot update the position of an address already listed as a recent or favorite destination. The user must add the destination again to obtain the most recent position data. Removing any existing instances of the destination before doing so will reduce the chance of confusion.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:34 pm

So, in this case...

  • The user has an existing recent and/or favorite for an address but this does not route well because of the location of the Google pin;
  • In response, I have "touched" the user's house number, adjusted the stop point, and "touched" a nearby segment to force a tile update;
  • The Google pin has intentionally not been modified; and
  • Status shows that tiles have updated.

...what do I tell the user to do?

I would start by asking them to remove any instances of the address from their recents and/or favorites list. Then I would ask them to search for the address from scratch. A list will pop up as they type with various icons and text. But I am still not sure what to tell them next to maximize the likelihood that their routing problem will be solved.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:57 am

Does Live Map still rely heavily on Google positions, more so than the app? As long as it continues to do that, it seems like some mention of Google is warranted. Many editors rely on Live Map to test routing.

I am not tracking the rapid movement of Waze's routing preferences and how those are reflected in the app and Live Map. If Google really is out of the picture, that's great to know!
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby jdeyoung » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:04 pm

OK, now I'm really puzzled. If I'm understanding this right, not only must we bump addresses on a street but ALSO touch the street itself to make searches work correctly? The oddity here is, when you "touch" the address - it shows the connection point where the address should be "on" the street. Could this also possibly imply that simply touching the street itself could cause the address to be properly routed to the correct street itself? The issue doesn't just occur with alleys, it also occurs with corner addresses too. If touching the street itself could trigger tile/search updates that would be FAR simpler than having to do both.
In any case, correcting the auto-placed house numbers screams for a more systemic fix - or automation potential.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby jdeyoung » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:13 pm

It seems then that there is an impasse. In residential areas - which of course neither waze or google actually "knows" - we have probably millions of address numbers that are not guaranteed to be closest to the streets for which they actually apply. Google is usually smart enough to temper the GPS coordinates to align with the actual street of the address. When it is not, the exceptions can be addressed on a one-off basis in google. Unfortunately, the waze algorithm can't/doesn't use street name as part of the consideration and routes to the closest drivable point to the gps-only coordinates. I would bet with confidence that the vast majority of routing directions in Chicago to residential addresses lead to the alley and not the street. And most wazers simply shrug their shoulders because waze gets them "close enough". But for a vocal minority of wazers that are in services businesses that are based on addresses in (more than likely) unfamiliar locations for each and every place they need to visit on a daily basis, we get a steady stream of URs complaining about constantly being routed to alleys and/or wrong streets. Again, getting a large number of editors to pitch in should be what waze is all about, but the house number tool isn't as reliable as it need to be for that to happen either.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby jdeyoung » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:23 pm

sketch wrote:Automating the confirmation of Waze house numbers, or allowing the use of non-confirmed imported house numbers, will cause enormous problems not only because it will disallow us from making that assessment but also because some of the house number data imported into Waze is truly, truly awful.

As I indicated, that leaves us at a bit of an impasse. I've lived in/around Chicago all of my life, and can look at addresses on a street and know they've all been mass-imported (like little toy soldiers all lined up) and placed too close to the alley. I'm not suggesting waze itself have this knowledge and do so automatically nor does it make sense to wait for each and every resident along the street to report a UR that their address is incorrectly too close to the alley. Should we wait for the hundreds of thousands of these to be reported? A better approach to solving these ad-hoc after a user reports a wrong location for the umpteenth time would be to solve these for entire streets at a time with a proper tool. It was a massive effort to mobilize editors in the area to attack the problem of alleys created from basemap as streets. Now multiply that by 40-50 addresses per block of all the residential streets and you get an idea of the amount of effort needed.
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Re: [Updated] House Numbers in WME

Postby jdeyoung » Thu May 01, 2014 2:43 pm

tonestertm wrote:Unlike the way it handles Google markers, Waze routing Does Not Care where the Number portion of a House Number sits. The important routing work is done by the Stop Point. The Number bubble is just a placeholder, visually cuing us humans to which building the Stop Point with that address, ties.

I do apologize for my lack of precision. The placement of the number bubble (untouched) only represents the point where google will route to until the bubble is touched and available to users only when the tile is updated (as discussed elsewhere). The oddity here is that the stop point was a feature introduced later (I think) after the addresses had already been placed from the mass-import - and yet all of the stop points are generally anchored to the proper street - not the alley. So waze had some knowledge in that process.
So, out of habit when touching addresses, I move the bubbles closer to the street - and then subsequent editors have a visual cue of addresses which have been touched along a given street.
That point is actually key, since the stop point of the address behaves similarly to the newly exposed "place handle" which shows the point within the "area place" that you would be routed to - like gas stations and larger areas.
Thanks for making the clarifying point about the bubbles location. ;)
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