Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable roads

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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:37 am

Sketch, I took the liberty to make some adjustments to the Ramp section based on our discussions on ramps so far. I put up a version of that page here here to review. I was especially worried about the wording of the double negative section of when not to use ramps. I think this proposal addresses that possible confusion point.

I added the other two unique properties for Ramps that I know about. If there are others we should add them. If my additions are incorrect, we should fix them.

Note the red links are to pages that do not yet exist, but they will when (or shortly after) we implement this page. When you are in edit more of the page, you will see the comment codes for other notes I think we should consider as well.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:20 pm

I agree we should add "at-grade intersection" and "at-grade crossings" to redirect to "at-grade connectors."

IMO the current [[At-grade connectors]] page is pretty clear in its definition of what it is. We do need to add the exceptions for Jughandles and MUTI to the exception note section.

Question, since "at-grade interchange" is by definition impossible, should we note that, or just ignore it as a term to be searched in the Wiki? I could easily create a stub page to say road cross one another either in an "interchange" or an "at-grade intersection."
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:19 pm

sketch wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I agree we should add "at-grade intersection" and "at-grade crossings" to redirect to "at-grade connectors."

IMO the current [[At-grade connectors]] page is pretty clear in its definition of what it is. We do need to add the exceptions for Jughandles and MUTI to the exception note section.

Question, since "at-grade interchange" is by definition impossible, should we note that, or just ignore it as a term to be searched in the Wiki? I could easily create a stub page to say road cross one another either in an "interchange" or an "at-grade intersection."

I don't know, should they redirect to Junction Style Guide instead?

I think we need to consider converting the (too large for single page) Junction Style Guide being a basepage for all junction types. Then the sections of the JSG breaks down into subpages like the Limited Access Interchange already does today. IMO [[At-grade connectors]] should also be a JSG subpage. On the redirects, they would be added to the AGC page as "also known as" entries in the initial heading/definition section.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:21 pm

qwaletee wrote:Gentlemen and ladies: remember, this is somewhat of a tempest in a teapot. We're trying to rigorously define something that anyone with expertise can immediately recognize. Only such people would have the rank to edit freeways and major highways anyway. Therefore, we are best off with KISS -- make it short, and allow exceptions by senior editors. If the champs get into a fight over a particular road, they'll work it out among themselves.

The purpose of the Wiki is to ensure consistency in the maps between editors. Regardless of who edits the roads, we need to be sure the instructions are clear. New editors will rise to the ranks of champs eventually and need to know the agreed instructions.

sketch wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:I think we need to consider converting the (too large for single page) Junction Style Guide being a basepage for all junction types. Then the sections of the JSG breaks down into subpages like the Limited Access Interchange already does today. IMO [[At-grade connectors]] should also be a JSG subpage. On the redirects, they would be added to the AGC page as "also known as" entries in the initial heading/definition section.

Into what, "Intersections" and "Interchanges"? It'd be really helpful to have those to link to from the road type rules. Maybe also an article on controlling turn instructions, or maybe that could be in the JSG itself. It seems like a lot of it would have to be rewritten, not that I'm saying that's a bad thing necessarily, or at least heavily reorganized.

I can draft a proposal to show what I mean on the JSG as a basepage.

We have an article on controlling turn instructions here already inside the JSG page.

Wikilinks between the guides is very doable and I have been trying to insert them when I see them missing.

sketch wrote:Into what, "Intersections" and "Interchanges"?

I am not sure what you are asking me on this one. :)
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:19 pm

sketch wrote:With respect to controlling turn instructions...Woo, tangent.

True and I now understand your other comment. Thanks

I will start the separate JSG thread with a proposed updated page sometime this weekend. I think it will still have enough material to do the job and contain the turn instructions. If my proposal does not meet the team's needs we can completely revamp my the page. ;)

A Style Guide can still easily exist as a collection of subpages. In true Wiki format, pages should really be less than 5 screens of data and some people say 2 or less.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:25 am

The biggest complaint I hear from users is many of our pages are so long it is hard to find things in them. For editors it is much too difficult to scroll through and edit things. So in this case our top 5 longest articles with some 30,000 characters can certainly use some reformatting. ;)
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:31 pm

IMO, we should not force a page to a smaller point size. It would look inconsistent with all the other pages. For certain things like getting a table to fit on a page I have no problem.

For the table, you can easily have the heading line be a double row tall allowing 3 of the columns to be much narrower. Also the table data could be replaced with the road initials (F, MjH, MnH, PS, & S) keeping the colors to match the road type so columns can be relatively flexible as required to fit on one page.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:59 pm

sketch wrote:Anyway, I did the table up in Wiki markup. The idea is to transclude it or whatever into the main article somewhere, possibly in its own section after the introductory text but before most of the text. Perhaps it would be best to move the caution box from "highways" into that section too. https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/User:Sketch/Road_Types/Chart

We can figure out the best solution (Transclude vs Template) once we determine all the places we want to put this (if more than one place).

The table is very good. I think we will need to add both Horizontal and Vertical headings to the table to define the entry boxes for each axis. I can create the boxes in the table and format the text if you guys can come up with the specific text to put in those two headings. The vertical heading will be 90 degrees, so it will have plenty of space for as many words as required.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:00 pm

sketch wrote:The text I have in my Excel spreadsheet for the column headings is "Highway systems"; for the row headings, "Functional classes".

I planned on doing this but once I read the Wikipedia information on table formatting, I saw that the only way to do 90° rotated text on Wikipedia is to make an image, so I chickened out. Maybe MediaWiki is different, but you'd know better than me.

Titles: I thought I saw titles somewhere. :lol:

90 degrees: I thought I found a way to do it. I will check it out and solve it either way for us.

Prior discussion on Wiki layout size: Each user can format the Wiki to their preferred liking with (currently) four options
Cologne Blue
Modern
Monobook (Default)
Vector
However if we build pages that only work with smaller fonts, we run the risk of preventing them from formatting on more condensed layouts.
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Re: Road Types (USA) – comprehensive overhaul of drivable ro

Postby kentsmith9 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:25 am

I took the liberty to create a copy of your chart and added the headers (including a temp vert header). Updated Chart. I also updated a few elements in the table to simplify maintenance.
sketch wrote:Sort of wish I could use a different page as a sample, since the entire main page is set to the "smaller" font size ;)

I assume you know you can change your individual settings and see any page in that style. In the mean time how about: :mrgreen:
Cologne Blue
Modern
Monobook (Default)
Vector
sketch wrote:I reverted the draft page to the default size with the exception of the caution box. The box was really difficult to follow in the default font size.

I can take a look at it with the default size to see if I can improve readability if you like. I don't think I have found a Wiki page I could not make readable at any typeface or size. :D
sketch wrote:I wonder why Monobook is the default. I really don't know why all the text in it is so big. I've switched to Vector (which is what Wikipedia looks like) and I find the Wiki is a lot easier to read now.

The problem, of course, is that we have to design the Wiki for the default, and if I'm going to be doing any sort of format editing in the Wiki, I'm going to have to suck it up and use the Monobook theme. The combination of large text and large margins makes it quite cramped.

I didn't see that previous discussion of the Wiki's layout. Is there any reason we default to Monobook?

I actually thought Monobook was the Wikipedia default. I personally use Vector for Wikipedia, but I don't think that was the default over there, was it?

According to MediaWiki the default skin has been Monobook since version 1.3.0.

Narrow columns are traditional for simplified reading by the average reader. Putting too much information on a single horizontal line of text is more difficult to follow from left to right.
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