Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

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Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:13 pm

For the second time in a few months, a novice editor has closed on order 100-200 URs in my area without customary etiquette. Different novice each time, and both responded contritely and thoughtfully to PMs.

But the URs are gone forever and there is no way to get them back. One could make a mad dash to work them in the few days left before they disappear. One could also say there shouldn't have been that many lying around to begin with. Both true, but besides the point that this kind of event can and does happen. Repeatedly.

I'd like to propose that closing URs be limited to Rank 2 and above. Rank 1 editors would be more than welcome to converse with the reporter and try to solve the problem, but they would not be able to close the report. This would not prevent a Rank 1 editor from working the UR! It would only prevent him or her from, effectively, deleting it.

Opinions please!

[EDIT: Alternate solutions include (a) allowing Rank 1 editors to close URs pending Rank 2+ approval or (b) allowing closed URs to be re-opened during the time window when they still appear on the map.]
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby SkiDooGuy » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:43 pm

Agreed. Even while sitting here at work today I had 3 UR's that were taking time to research and specifically said "do not close" closed by a few different level 1. I can still work them and comment sure. But now the reporter gets either mixed signals or gives up. A rather large annoyance.


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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby Machete808 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:49 am

Maybe no credit could be assigned for closing a report, until you're 2+ ?
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby Kobes1878 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:55 am

Yessir. I proposed a similar idea here. (I was under the impression at the time that AMs have the ability to reopen closed URs.)

Also please see my Proposal for Waze and let me know your thoughts.
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Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby ottonomy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:31 am

At the very least, I'd like to see a restriction on L1s closing URs with comments on them by other editors, and perhaps a requirement that, on URs without conversations, first a comment must be left by the L1 editor, and then a delay of x days must elapse before the UR can be closed by that L1 editor.
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby yogi_fuggin_bear » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:02 am

I have to disagree on completely shutting them out under the first proposal. For starters you're asking for drastic changes to be made because of a sporadic nuisance that only infuriates a few. To boot, the URs aren't gone forever, just click on "show closed" in the layers menu and you can continue to make comments on the UR.... However the others involved in the conversation need to select that button as well in order to reply.

To further play devils advocate;

1: There are some areas off the beaten path that only have level one editors monitoring anything on a regular basis, and because of the recently increased level limits, and the lower proportion of roads to edit, it will take them longer to level up to 2/3/4. Also, considering the higher proportion of rural areas versus suburban, it will make their lives more tedious always PMing higher level editors to close out the UR. This is because these areas don't have AMs and thus they'll need to take it up with their RCs, and the RCs already have a busy enough job.

2: Not all L3/4/5 editors are created equal. I've seen no less than 100 UR's that had L3/4/5 editors simply never close out the UR. They could be stated as solved, had no conversation for over 45 days, you name it. They're okay to close, but never closed. Let the L1's come in and take care of the grunt work and earn some points.

3: Your AM needs to take a more active role with this and you should be keeping tabs of names and sending those to them with a nice tidy report, they're the manager of the area, it's their call.

That aside, there are better options than just shutting them out.


Kobes1878 wrote:Yessir. I proposed a similar idea here. (I was under the impression at the time that AMs have the ability to reopen closed URs.)

For example if this is true, then expand that capability to L3/4 editors.

Add a lock button similar to the lock on a road, where you someone can lock a comment from being closed, or have it auto lock for the highest responder.

Add exclusion zones around major cities. These could be drawn by the RCs and the minimum level should correspond to the size of the metropolitan area. New York City for example could be a minimum of 3/4 and smaller cities like Memphis can be 2/3.

I understand the annoyance of lower level editors and fix their mistakes all the time, but there are better ways to approach this than just putting them at the kids table.
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby DwarfLord » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:51 pm

yogi_fuggin_bear wrote:I have to disagree on completely shutting them out under the first proposal. For starters you're asking for drastic changes to be made because of a sporadic nuisance that only infuriates a few. To boot, the URs aren't gone forever, just click on "show closed" in the layers menu and you can continue to make comments on the UR.

yogi, my observation is that closed URs disappear from the map after a week or so. Once a UR is no longer displayed, if nobody has the UR identifier (e.g. as obtained through an email) there is no way to access it and it really is, effectively, gone forever. If closed URs really were available for display til the end of time I would agree with you that locking them is unnecessary, but then we'd have a different problem :)

Closing a UR with no particular effort to solve it is not "closing" it. It is deleting it. I just don't want Rank 1s to be able to delete URs. We lock all sorts of things above Rank 1, why not URs?

To reiterate, the idea is emphatically not to "completely shut them out". I am very sorry if I gave that impression. I very much want Rank 1s to be able to view URs, converse with reporters, and attempt to solve issues. I just don't want Rank 1s to delete URs. That does not shut them out at all really! It just means (a) they don't get points for deleting URs (well, yeah!) and (b) the URs won't be closed until somebody else comes along, which as you point out already happens no matter who works the URs.

The most important thing about a UR is the window it can open into a problem in the map. While nobody wants open URs lying around forever, it is even worse for them to be deleted without being worked. If that's the tradeoff, then yes, in cases where a Rank 1 successfully works a UR let's leave it lying around until a Rank 2+ can review and close it. What harm does that do really? In fact it gives Rank 1s one more incentive to reach Rank 2, which is a good thing.

[EDIT: WIth regard to other proposals, all of which have great merit, my only concern is that the more complex the proposal the less likely it is to be implemented. Beyond a certain point of complexity -- for example, having different UR locking behavior in different regions to be drawn and maintained by the RC -- the likelihood of implementation is so low we are engaging in what Einstein happily referred to as "brainschmaltz".]
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby HELGRAMITE » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:11 am

-
Last edited by HELGRAMITE on Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby tonestertm » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:26 pm

I have to say I've wished for the same Rank 2 restriction many times. The amount of potential information lost by not having those URs (not to mention the reporter receiving a message that their problem was "fixed", only to find later that it wasn't) should not only be "infuriating to a few" but frustrating to all who care about improving the map. I like the original proposal of allowing R1s to work the URs, but not close them out, at least without an approval of some sort from a higher ranked editor to look in on things.

It has been my experience that the vast majority of these types of mass deletions have been editors quite literally in their first day or three of touching the map, and this is accomplished by clicking the Solved button without so much as a whisper of a comment nor a fix on the map. Not many absolute beginners truly know how to edit the map properly, let alone distinguish between actual problem URs and noise, and how to properly solve some of those actual problems. I'm not so sure that points are even a motivation to some of these folks--they might think they're actually helping. IMHO, if there were even a simple delay of perhaps a week or two between the first edit and UR privilege, it might go a long way toward eliminating this problem.

Another option would be to have a sort of UR "oversight" where a new editor would be able to work URs , but have a certain number of them approved by a higher rank (doesn't necessarily have to be AM or CM), before they were allowed to Solve/Not Identify on their own. This would add a small additional load on some upper editors but not as much as having to OK every single edit by an R1, and provides an opportunity for interaction between the n00b and someone with a bit more experience who might then be able to guide the beginners in an informal mentorage.

Of course all of this would be moot if there were a simple basics-test and a pointer to the wiki before editing could begin, but that's another thread.... ;)
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Re: Should closing URs be limited to Rank 2+?

Postby CBenson » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:55 pm

tonestertm wrote:It has been my experience that the vast majority of these types of mass deletions have been editors quite literally in their first day or three of touching the map, and this is accomplished by clicking the Solved button without so much as a whisper of a comment nor a fix on the map.

I really haven't encountered any such mass deletions. But my experience is that URs that are closed as solved without any edit to the map that actually solves the problem does not correlate with the rank of the editor that closes the UR.
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