[Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby CBenson » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:18 pm

It does seem to me all of these not very frequently occurrences are bound to occur in New Jersey.

I would say though that I read the proposed guidance to mean if the PLR is pseudo-officially signed that it should be named.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby CBenson » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:04 am

kentsmith9 wrote:The parking lot content agreed that naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot was a problem unless the actual street was named inside the parking lot.

Sure we agreed naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is a problem. But we all know not naming the segments the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is problem as well. Even after that thread, had I come across the Bollinger Crossing example locally, I would have named the road. Its on the green road sign. How am I supposed to determine that that is the name of the shopping center and not the name of the road?
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[Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:29 am

A few new editors in my area have taken to giving Parking-Lot Roads (PLRs) names associated with a prominent destination they serve. For example "7/11", "Kmart", "storage facility", etc.

I'm resistant to this practice but I can see occasional advantages. For example, two adjacent parking-lot entrances served by the same left-turn gap in a median barrier. The driver is told to "turn left" -- but into which one? If it said "turn left on Hamilton Business Park" that might be helpful, if not proper English.

Searching turned up two threads on this topic, but both dated from a time when turns onto unnamed PLRs took the name of the street from which one was turning. People found this profoundly confusing and were looking for workarounds. Interest in the idea disappeared when the behavior ceased.

And, AlanOfTheBerg pointed out in one of those threads that if you name the PLRs you will get those names when leaving the lot as well as when entering it.

The Road Names (USA) article is silent on this topic. Any reactions? Should I edit it to prohibit naming PLRs unless local signage or other official sources clearly assign the road a name?
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:44 am

How about, at least as a start, the following paragraph be added to Road names/USA. This covers the problem from a broader angle and addresses inconsistent data as well as made-up names.

Suggested addition to Road names/USA wrote:Naming principles

  • The name given to any road segment (other than ramps and at-grade connectors) shall originate preferentially with government sources. These sources are, in order of priority: clear and consistent signage; local government street maps (for example county GIS); or other government data (such as state maps or topographic maps).
  • If government sources provide multiple but inconsistent names for a road segment, local sources, such as local news articles, may be considered.
  • The alternate name field may be employed to handle extreme cases of multiple or inconsistent names for the same road segment. This does not apply to historical names that are no longer used for directions or addressing; these do not belong on the Waze map in any form.
  • If no government source names a road on private property, it may be named according to information provided by the property owner or tenant.
  • If the above sources provide no name at all for a road segment, its name field should be left blank and marked as "None". Third-party mapping databases shall not be used to supply a road name that cannot be found in primary sources. Under no circumstances shall any road name be made up, even if the made-up name is based on nearby landmarks or destinations.


Is that too severe?

[EDIT: omitted ramps and at-grade connectors from this discussion]
Last edited by DwarfLord on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:08 am

kentsmith9 wrote:Seems rather extensive and long when we are just trying to say not to label Parking Lot segments. :)

Sigh, yes.

I've come across some issues lately with inconsistent signage. Watsonville for example has small street signs calling a road Clifford Ave, but we got a UR complaining that it was really Clifford Dr. Turns out Watsonville installed a BGS on Main St calling it Clifford Dr. All the other signs say Clifford Ave and official city releases also call it Clifford Ave. But there's the BGS.

So I was thinking to take care of that too.

I am always thinking when I write guidance of how an argument would be arbitrated. So, I like to write guidance that is thorough. Unfortunately it often ends up cumbersome as well :roll:
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:18 pm

How about this instead:

If primary sources provide no name at all for a common road segment, its name field should be left blank and marked as "None". Third-party mapping databases shall not be used to supply a road name that cannot be found in primary sources. Under no circumstances shall any road name be made up, even if the made-up name is based on nearby landmarks or destinations.


Less detailed about what constitutes a "primary" source but it can be inferred from the prohibition against using third-party mapping databases.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:53 pm

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:The parking lot content agreed that naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot was a problem unless the actual street was named inside the parking lot.

Sure we agreed naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is a problem. But we all know not naming the segments the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is problem as well. Even after that thread, had I come across the Bollinger Crossing example locally, I would have named the road. Its on the green road sign. How am I supposed to determine that that is the name of the shopping center and not the name of the road?

If we pursue the "Naming Principles" approach, maybe that could cover this situation more neatly and in a more general way than saying "don't name PLRs but here are the exceptions"?

The Naming Principles proposed above gives the very first valid source of data as "clear and consistent signage". Then later, "If no government source names a road on private property, it may be named according to information provided by the property owner or tenant." Those seem adequate to cover the situation where a PLR has a definite identity according to either governmental or private signage.

While I agree there are times when naming a PLR "Chevron" to get a "turn right on Chevron" voice announcement might reduce confusion (at the expense of sounding awkward), those cases appear the exception rather than the rule. Meanwhile every time it's done it sets an example and a precedent for other editors. I've started to see a lot of these lately, hence this thread :)
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:54 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:
sketch wrote:I can't believe the wiki doesn't already say not to name PLRs. Now that TTS / nav instruction display handles them properly (AT LAST), there's even less reason to name them.

Turns out it is buried in one of the original pages on mapping,
Wiki... wrote:...For streets with no name, such as private roads or parking lot roads, use the "No Name" check box...

We need to address this for:
  • Parking Lot Roads
  • Driveways
  • Roundabouts
  • At Grade Connectors (that are not ramps)
  • And some non-ramp segments that will pick up the next segment name as is done with wayfinders
Pages that need to get some linkage on these no-name segments:


I'd like to get the "naming principles" section into the wiki, and I too think a reference to it would be useful in all these places. But I'm unclear on (1) where the "master" should be and which others should be references, and (2) of the references, which should be links and which transclusions.

At first glance the "master" might belong in Road names/USA. However the concept of not making up names for roads seems broader than just the US. Should the naming principles be placed "higher" in the wiki tree, or...?
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:31 pm

Is there such a thing as a transcludable page (as opposed to a transcludable subpage)? I'm thinking of a page titled "Road naming principles" that would be quite short, basically the text I suggested earlier. It could be linked to in other articles, but it would be so short transcluding might work better.

But, that's provided it is proper convention (not to mention do-able at all) to transclude a full page.

Or an approach in which the top-level "Road naming principles" page consists entirely of its own transcluded subpage, which can also be transcluded elsewhere...?
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[Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:00 pm

I've been planning to do this but Real Life has intruded over the last month. Should have a moment coming up in the next week.


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