[Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:50 am

qwaletee wrote:>> We used to use PLR to dissallow them. Now we can restrict them to only HOV vehicles which also disallow them

That's predicated on the HOV restriction setting having an effect on routing. That is not true today, so it is effectively "restriction free."

Sort of, but not really.

Currently, there is no way to indicate what type of vehicle you are in the client. So all vehicles are considered "private vehicles." So currently if you mark a road as restricted to everything but HOV vehicles (what you should do for HOV lanes) you tick the restriction box for "private vehicles" (and trucks, etc.). Restricting "private vehicles" currently does have an effect. The current effect of restricting "private vehicles" is to restrict the road for routing for all vehicles as all vehicles are currently considered private vehicles. This is not restriction free.

So if you keep HOV as unrestricted when you have private vehicles restricted, then the HOV part doesn't currently have an effect, but the private vehicle part does have an effect.

Thus if you set up of HOV lanes properly with time/vehicle restrictions, then all vehicles will be prohibited from the HOV lanes during the times that the HOV restrictions are in place. This is a distinct advantage over using parking lot roads for HOV restrictions that are not in place all the time. As with the restrictions waze will route over the HOV lanes when the restrictions are not applicable. With parking lot roads, the HOV lanes will never be routed on.

I think the proposed guidelines need to be written with the idea that "private vehicle" restrictions are currently effective.



qwaletee wrote:Right now, we're treating HOT and HOV lanes the same.

We are not treating HOT and HOV lanes the same in the DC area at this point. HOT lanes are currently treated the same as any toll road in the DC area. That way those that want to use the HOT lanes can be routed over them and those that don't can turn on "Avoid toll roads." Of course that is a problem for those that want to be routed over other other toll roads as discussed above, but there is no support for being able to choose which tolls you are willing to pay and which you aren't. (As users in the DC area don't have to cross a river or bay with all the crossings tolled this is less of a problem here.)

If we treated HOT and HOV lanes the same, then we would be restricting them from all use at this point. There is not much reason to do that here in the DC area when we can make it work for those who are willing to pay the tolls.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:38 pm

There is not necessarily any clearing out. Sometime the lanes are just going from open to all to HOV restricted. If you are non-HOV compliant you can be on the lanes up until the cutoff time but can be ticketed after that time.

For some reason the VA police seem to like to monitor the exits rather than the entrances. I don't know if this still goes on, but it meant that if the HOV restrictions ended at 6:30 you could get on a little early as long as you didn't get off before 6:30. I've heard first hand that you could cut it too close.

Can't personally vouch for the truth of this story but it was told to me first hand by some one who liked to see how close he could come to the 6:30 opening time. So driving alone he reaches his exit a couple of minutes after 6:30, but the patrol car is still there. He passes the patrol car who proceeds to pull him over. He protests that it is after 6:30. The officer asks him what time he thinks it is. He says 6:35. The officer asks if he is coming home from work. He says yes. The officer asks where he works. Without thinking everything through he answers honestly (showing he works in DC). The officer asks whether he would prefer the HOV citation or the speeding citation.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:26 pm

PhantomSoul wrote:What if we could make a guess-timate about how long it should take to travel all the way through in the HOV lanes, and set back the beginning of the restriction time by that amount? For example, if HOV enforcement was to start at 4pm and we figure it takes about 20 minutes to go all the way thru from beginning to end of the HOV roadway, we could set the TBR to start at 3:30pm. Then we would not need to hack any exit or continuing segments of the HOV roadway.

The whole issue here is that there are multiple exits. So if you get on at 3:30 you can go all the way, but if you get on at 3:15 you can only go half way and then need to exit. Marking the exits as restricted lets waze route using the multiple exits. I don't see why changing the entry time is less of a hack than putting in an exit restriction.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Not sure why we would need to remove anything. The hack at this point is really removing the restrictions from the main HOV lanes, rather than adding them to the exits.

Currently, we don't label all of the segments HOV restricted because if you are HOV compliant and take the HOV lanes, waze will immediately re-route you off of them through the route with the fewest HOV restricted segments. Marking just the entrances (and exits) solves this problem. But this is only a problem while we can't indicate HOV status in the client. With the entrances and exits marked with the correct times, nothing would need to be removed (or changed) to have HOV routing work. When we can indicate HOV status in the client we could then add the restrictions to main HOV lanes as well.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:55 pm

qwaletee wrote:Any restricted segments will be done by using partial restrictions - vehicle types, by ticking all vehicle types except the two HOV entries. This has the effect of banning "private cars" from routing there, and all routes are considered private cars today, so this replaces the historical use of PLR for such purposes.

Broadly I agree, but going forward the devil is in the details.

If the restriction is HOV-2 then both the HOV-2 and HOV-3 are left unchecked. If the restriction is HOV-3 then HOV-2 needs to be checked as well.

Motorcycles are permitted to use the HOV lanes around here, but that may not be universal. But around DC (i.e. in Maryland and Virginia) the motorcycle box should be left unchecked as well.

I'm never quite sure whether taxis or buses are intended for riders or drivers (or maybe both). It will be interesting to see whether the client allows multiple choices or whether you can only be a taxi or HOV-2.

qwaletee wrote:For reversible lanes, we will also use time restrictions. (Suggestion: in this case, we should also set the time-only restrictions on the HOV segments, with no vehicle type restrictions.)

I'm not sure I understand the suggestion. Do you mean set the HOV/time restrictions on the entrances and the repeat the time restrictions but not the HOV restrictions on the reversible lanes?

I'm also for putting the restrictions on the exits.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:57 pm

PesachZ wrote:
CBenson wrote:...

I'm also for putting the restrictions on the exits.


Do you mean you support it for all HOV lanes, or just for the ones with specific timed restrictions, which are open to the public during other times?


I support it for specific timed restrictions. For lanes that are HOV all the time, I'm ambivalent as I don't see that they would have any effect.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:30 pm

Yes, waze will just pic the path with the fastest traffic speed if on the HOV lane after 4:00. However, when routing before 4:00 waze will pick the exit that can be routed through before 4:00 with the fastest traffic speed.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:45 pm

PesachZ wrote:I've implemented these changes in the wiki on the Carpool, HOV, Transit lanes, and to the Best map editing practice - Handling restricted lanes section.

Couple of minor things I noted when I read it. One in the first message box I originally read "Although this method is now preferred" to refer to the old method as that was referred to in the prior sentence. Maybe "Although the method described below is now preferred" would avoid some confusion. Second do we need the comma in the first point in the final section - "The driver would need to tell the Waze client app how many passengers are present in the car , or what vehicle type they are in for that trip." Is so we should remove the preceding space.

Couple of substantive issues that I would like to raise.
First, is this a really situation that occurs anywhere:
If the hours are adjacent to each other, meaning that there is no buffer time between the two travel direction of the lanes, then we will have to add a buffer time into to Waze for safety. In that case expand the restriction to start 15 minutes earlier so there is at least a 15 minute window when there travel is restricted in both directions between the open periods.
I don't know how that would be done. If its not a circumstance that anyone has encountered, I wouldn't include guidance for it.

Second, I'm not a fan of changing the start times of the restrictions to account for delays while in route. I think its better for us to be accurate and let the user make the final decision. Further, if we are going to adjust the start times, I think 15 minutes is way too long. If you lose 15 minutes in route waze should already be recalculating your route. If we are going to recommend adjusting the start times, I think the adjustment should be a maximum of 5 minutes.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:04 pm

PesachZ wrote:The lower level of the Manhattan bridge in NY has this situation. It is used inbound to Manhattan from 05:00-15:00, and outbound to Brooklyn 15:00-05:00 on weekdays. And inbound only on weekends.

I'm still having a hard time understanding how that works. I take it there is some kind of brief closure in both directions (from the perspective of entering the lanes) to make the switch, but the authorities don't commit to a precise time frame that could be relied upon for use by waze.

PesachZ wrote:I can agree with 5 minutes if we can rely on the server to update often enough to account for delays. I believe it is more important in the case of reversible lanes so we don't accidentally send someone the wrong way down a freeway.

Makes sense to me. I agree that not routing a few people within a few minutes of reversible lanes opening is much preferable to routing anyone on reversible lanes while they remain closed.
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Re: [Update] Partial restrictions (time and vehicle type)

Postby CBenson » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:56 pm

I'll repeat:
CBenson wrote:I'm not a fan of changing the start times of the restrictions to account for delays while in route. I think its better for us to be accurate and let the user make the final decision. Further, if we are going to adjust the start times, I think 15 minutes is way too long. If you lose 15 minutes in route waze should already be recalculating your route. If we are going to recommend adjusting the start times, I think the adjustment should be a maximum of 5 minutes.

A five minute adjustment seemed to be considered reasonable.
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