[Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:55 am

CBenson wrote:I would say though that I read the proposed guidance to mean if the PLR is pseudo-officially signed that it should be named.

About 9 months ago had a similar debate with a number of champs on naming parking lot roads. This thread came up with the current guidelines to not name parking lot roads. I believe the only exception we determined was when the actual parking lot had internal road signs with names. Otherwise no names to parking lot roads due to problems and confusion.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:57 am

Kent,

I followed that thread, and what I can say is, there did not seem to be consensus. The last part of the discussion was whether it was a hack to use separate enter/exit lanes that would avoid the main problem of named entrance roads, i.e., that they also get announced at exit time. Certainly, the issues I raised ITT were not explored.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:50 am

qwaletee wrote:Kent,

I followed that thread, and what I can say is, there did not seem to be consensus. The last part of the discussion was whether it was a hack to use separate enter/exit lanes that would avoid the main problem of named entrance roads, i.e., that they also get announced at exit time. Certainly, the issues I raised ITT were not explored.

The thread had two parts. The Driveway content was concluded in a Wiki entry. The parking lot content agreed that naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot was a problem unless the actual street was named inside the parking lot.

Yes there was a discussion of a possible hack, but we have been told repeatedly to ask Waze to fix things that are broken before we change the millions of segments to create a hack (if they do plan on fixing it).

If you are suggesting discussing the hack, then you can certainly do that now. Otherwise without a hack, naming parking lot road into or out of the segment was concluded to be confusing and not recommended. That is why they Wiki says not to name parking lot roads as a default.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby CBenson » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:04 am

kentsmith9 wrote:The parking lot content agreed that naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot was a problem unless the actual street was named inside the parking lot.

Sure we agreed naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is a problem. But we all know not naming the segments the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is problem as well. Even after that thread, had I come across the Bollinger Crossing example locally, I would have named the road. Its on the green road sign. How am I supposed to determine that that is the name of the shopping center and not the name of the road?
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:53 pm

CBenson wrote:
kentsmith9 wrote:The parking lot content agreed that naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot was a problem unless the actual street was named inside the parking lot.

Sure we agreed naming the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is a problem. But we all know not naming the segments the segments entering and exiting the parking lot is problem as well. Even after that thread, had I come across the Bollinger Crossing example locally, I would have named the road. Its on the green road sign. How am I supposed to determine that that is the name of the shopping center and not the name of the road?

If we pursue the "Naming Principles" approach, maybe that could cover this situation more neatly and in a more general way than saying "don't name PLRs but here are the exceptions"?

The Naming Principles proposed above gives the very first valid source of data as "clear and consistent signage". Then later, "If no government source names a road on private property, it may be named according to information provided by the property owner or tenant." Those seem adequate to cover the situation where a PLR has a definite identity according to either governmental or private signage.

While I agree there are times when naming a PLR "Chevron" to get a "turn right on Chevron" voice announcement might reduce confusion (at the expense of sounding awkward), those cases appear the exception rather than the rule. Meanwhile every time it's done it sets an example and a precedent for other editors. I've started to see a lot of these lately, hence this thread :)
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:35 pm

Named PLRs also creates a search problem. Naming a PLR "Chevron" means you get two results for the same Chevron, one for the road and one for the area place.

Any post I made in the previous discussion in support of naming PLRs (because I used to at large shopping centers etc.) is moot since 3.8.0 when Waze fixed unnamed-road TTS instructions.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby qwaletee » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:11 pm

Side note: There are no stats on the number of people who have upgraded and the number who have not. Anecdotally, a lot of people are complaining about the update, and I know a bunch of people IRL who have not updated from 3.7.x. It is also well known in the app world that there is a fairly long update cycle before you can retire support for older versions.

Given that, 3.8.0 may very well not fix anything for a large segment of the Waze driver base.

Now, back to the nain topic at hand... this doesn't solve for the other use cases I mentioned.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby sketch » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:24 pm

qwaletee wrote:Side note: There are no stats on the number of people who have upgraded and the number who have not. Anecdotally, a lot of people are complaining about the update, and I know a bunch of people IRL who have not updated from 3.7.x. It is also well known in the app world that there is a fairly long update cycle before you can retire support for older versions.

Not so – I'm not sure where exactly, or to what extent, this information was made available, so I can't point you to it, but 3.8 had a significantly faster take rate than 3.7.8 did when it was first released.

Certainly, it's not wise to remove support for old versions immediately after the release of a new version. But that doesn't mean we should be creating new rules to make old versions work better, at the expense of the new version's handling of the map. Especially because we've had this rule for years now, so users who are on/still on the old versions will be used to that behavior, and new users will never have to experience it.
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby DwarfLord » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:54 pm

kentsmith9 wrote:
sketch wrote:I can't believe the wiki doesn't already say not to name PLRs. Now that TTS / nav instruction display handles them properly (AT LAST), there's even less reason to name them.

Turns out it is buried in one of the original pages on mapping,
Wiki... wrote:...For streets with no name, such as private roads or parking lot roads, use the "No Name" check box...

We need to address this for:
  • Parking Lot Roads
  • Driveways
  • Roundabouts
  • At Grade Connectors (that are not ramps)
  • And some non-ramp segments that will pick up the next segment name as is done with wayfinders
Pages that need to get some linkage on these no-name segments:


I'd like to get the "naming principles" section into the wiki, and I too think a reference to it would be useful in all these places. But I'm unclear on (1) where the "master" should be and which others should be references, and (2) of the references, which should be links and which transclusions.

At first glance the "master" might belong in Road names/USA. However the concept of not making up names for roads seems broader than just the US. Should the naming principles be placed "higher" in the wiki tree, or...?
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Re: [Update] Road Name/USA - PLot Roads?

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:12 pm

DwarfLord wrote:I'd like to get the "naming principles" section into the wiki, and I too think a reference to it would be useful in all these places. But I'm unclear on (1) where the "master" should be and which others should be references, and (2) of the references, which should be links and which transclusions.

At first glance the "master" might belong in Road names/USA. However the concept of not making up names for roads seems broader than just the US. Should the naming principles be placed "higher" in the wiki tree, or...?

I agree the "no name" guidelines are likely universal to all countries, so should be higher, but if we currently have no universal place, then we should at least start at the USA.

One idea is to include it where we discuss the check box itself in the WME page. Then also include it in the USA section on road naming.

We can create a transcludable subpage with the text, but I think it will be basic enough and not likely to change, so we can just hard code it in the pages that require it.
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