[Update] Road Closures

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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:39 am

PesachZ wrote:I suppose I made the strikethrough (and S) templates for nothing, maybe you'll find a use for them elsewhere.

No template is wasted. :lol:
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby Fredo-p » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:06 am

I have incorporated the changes mentioned. Let me know how it looks.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:09 am

We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

For certain cases, especially local closures, we decided it was acceptable to use the disconnect mechanism and not file it with Waze, because they could at worst cause local problems. In addition, local closures are often not as well marked.

Also, the main reason Waze does not want disconnects is because there is a conflict between their closure system, which relies on knowing the path for the closure through a junction node to the closed segment, and the guidance to disconnect. There are other ways of phsyically disconnecting that might not conflict, but it bears some exploration.

So, modified alternative guidance for local:
* Set date-based segment and/or turn restrictions well before the closure
* Closure should occur automatically on the scheduled date
* Optionally, seal the deal AFTER the closure starts by disconnecting, in case the routing code ignores the scheduled restriction. Whether you physically disconnect should depend on your assessed: danger if routing overrides, likelihood of routing overrides, how badly the driver could get lost or lose time if routing overrides
* Set yourself a reminder for about 80% of completion time to check status of project. Fine tune end of scheduled restriction, and start checking regularly for any late changes to the construction end date.
* A few days before expected re-opening (allow a tile update cycle in between), reconnect roads, possibly fine-tune end of schedule on restriction
* Verify re-opening, then remove restriction entirely

For long term closures, instead of 80%, set yourself regular reminders to check progress against baseline dates, and adjust restriction schedule and calendar reminders accordingly.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby Fredo-p » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:36 am

Haven't looked to verify this, but wouldn't the (Closed) tag and restricting "turns" to the closed segments work?
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby PesachZ » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:18 am

Fredo-p wrote:Haven't looked to verify this, but wouldn't the (Closed) tag and restricting "turns" to the closed segments work?

Restricted turns are not foolproof, and can be routed through in extreme circumstances. Hence why the disconnect was introduced, but the closure was later presented by Waze as a better alternative.
qwaletee wrote:We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

For certain cases, especially local closures, we decided it was acceptable to use the disconnect mechanism and not file it with Waze, because they could at worst cause local problems. In addition, local closures are often not as well marked.

Also, the main reason Waze does not want disconnects is because there is a conflict between their closure system, which relies on knowing the path for the closure through a junction node to the closed segment, and the guidance to disconnect. There are other ways of phsyically disconnecting that might not conflict, but it bears some exploration.

So, modified alternative guidance for local:
* Set date-based segment and/or turn restrictions well before the closure
* Closure should occur automatically on the scheduled date
* Optionally, seal the deal AFTER the closure starts by disconnecting, in case the routing code ignores the scheduled restriction. Whether you physically disconnect should depend on your assessed: danger if routing overrides, likelihood of routing overrides, how badly the driver could get lost or lose time if routing overrides
* Set yourself a reminder for about 80% of completion time to check status of project. Fine tune end of scheduled restriction, and start checking regularly for any late changes to the construction end date.
* A few days before expected re-opening (allow a tile update cycle in between), reconnect roads, possibly fine-tune end of schedule on restriction
* Verify re-opening, then remove restriction entirely

For long term closures, instead of 80%, set yourself regular reminders to check progress against baseline dates, and adjust restriction schedule and calendar reminders accordingly.

another 'main' reason Waze doesn't want disconnects is they are worried that the roads will be neglected and not reconnected when necessary., this also seems like a rather complicated alternative to just submitting a form.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:52 am

qwaletee wrote:We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

That discussion predated the closure sheet and is now irrelevant.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:02 am

Sketch,

Please read through the transcript. Our context was that the closure tool was available, and we assumed it COULD be used. So the availability of the closure sheet changes nothing regarding that discussion.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Wrong. The context was that the closure tool was not available. (Before you say anything, yes, I read through the transcript. I even copied it to a document so I don't have to waste 20 minutes scrolling to find something I already knew.)

At that time, the only way to get a proper closure was to submit a mega traffic event. The only thing I agreed would merit a disconnect was a closure on a major road if the mega traffic event was denied or reasonably expected to be denied. Anything on minor roads, time-based restrictions would do. Anything very major, a mega traffic event should be submitted.

That's no longer an issue, because we have the closure sheet, which specifically handles all closures. So we use the closure sheet for everything now, and there is no longer any reason to disconnect segments. Period.

That discussion was June 23-24; the closure sheet was created June 29.

Even then I said that disconnecting roads shouldn't be in the Wiki.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby PesachZ » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:54 pm

sketch wrote:Wrong. The context was that the closure tool was not available. (Before you say anything, yes, I read through the transcript. I even copied it to a document so I don't have to waste 20 minutes scrolling to find something I already knew.)

At that time, the only way to get a proper closure was to submit a mega traffic event. The only thing I agreed would merit a disconnect was a closure on a major road if the mega traffic event was denied or reasonably expected to be denied. Anything on minor roads, time-based restrictions would do. Anything very major, a mega traffic event should be submitted.

That's no longer an issue, because we have the closure sheet, which specifically handles all closures. So we use the closure sheet for everything now, and there is no longer any reason to disconnect segments. Period.

That discussion was June 23-24; the closure sheet was created June 29.

Even then I said that disconnecting roads shouldn't be in the Wiki.

as mentioned in another post, disconnecting segments SHOULD be done in the case the roads are being physically deconstructed, or will permanently no longer connect. It was proposed as a wiki change. Just mentioning this so there is no apparent conflict, I believe you would agree with that usage.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:24 pm

PesachZ wrote:as mentioned in another post, disconnecting segments SHOULD be done in the case the roads are being physically deconstructed, or will permanently no longer connect. It was proposed as a wiki change. Just mentioning this so there is no apparent conflict, I believe you would agree with that usage.

Indeed. I just mean that the usage we agreed upon at that time, for the time being, is no longer relevant.
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