[Update] Road Closures

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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Wrong. The context was that the closure tool was not available. (Before you say anything, yes, I read through the transcript. I even copied it to a document so I don't have to waste 20 minutes scrolling to find something I already knew.)

At that time, the only way to get a proper closure was to submit a mega traffic event. The only thing I agreed would merit a disconnect was a closure on a major road if the mega traffic event was denied or reasonably expected to be denied. Anything on minor roads, time-based restrictions would do. Anything very major, a mega traffic event should be submitted.

That's no longer an issue, because we have the closure sheet, which specifically handles all closures. So we use the closure sheet for everything now, and there is no longer any reason to disconnect segments. Period.

That discussion was June 23-24; the closure sheet was created June 29.

Even then I said that disconnecting roads shouldn't be in the Wiki.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:02 am

Sketch,

Please read through the transcript. Our context was that the closure tool was available, and we assumed it COULD be used. So the availability of the closure sheet changes nothing regarding that discussion.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby sketch » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:52 am

qwaletee wrote:We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

That discussion predated the closure sheet and is now irrelevant.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby PesachZ » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:18 am

Fredo-p wrote:Haven't looked to verify this, but wouldn't the (Closed) tag and restricting "turns" to the closed segments work?

Restricted turns are not foolproof, and can be routed through in extreme circumstances. Hence why the disconnect was introduced, but the closure was later presented by Waze as a better alternative.
qwaletee wrote:We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

For certain cases, especially local closures, we decided it was acceptable to use the disconnect mechanism and not file it with Waze, because they could at worst cause local problems. In addition, local closures are often not as well marked.

Also, the main reason Waze does not want disconnects is because there is a conflict between their closure system, which relies on knowing the path for the closure through a junction node to the closed segment, and the guidance to disconnect. There are other ways of phsyically disconnecting that might not conflict, but it bears some exploration.

So, modified alternative guidance for local:
* Set date-based segment and/or turn restrictions well before the closure
* Closure should occur automatically on the scheduled date
* Optionally, seal the deal AFTER the closure starts by disconnecting, in case the routing code ignores the scheduled restriction. Whether you physically disconnect should depend on your assessed: danger if routing overrides, likelihood of routing overrides, how badly the driver could get lost or lose time if routing overrides
* Set yourself a reminder for about 80% of completion time to check status of project. Fine tune end of scheduled restriction, and start checking regularly for any late changes to the construction end date.
* A few days before expected re-opening (allow a tile update cycle in between), reconnect roads, possibly fine-tune end of schedule on restriction
* Verify re-opening, then remove restriction entirely

For long term closures, instead of 80%, set yourself regular reminders to check progress against baseline dates, and adjust restriction schedule and calendar reminders accordingly.

another 'main' reason Waze doesn't want disconnects is they are worried that the roads will be neglected and not reconnected when necessary., this also seems like a rather complicated alternative to just submitting a form.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby Fredo-p » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:36 am

Haven't looked to verify this, but wouldn't the (Closed) tag and restricting "turns" to the closed segments work?
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby qwaletee » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:09 am

We had a longish discussion about this on the Routing and TTS Hangout on June 23-24. There were still situations we had a consensus to disconnect.

For certain cases, especially local closures, we decided it was acceptable to use the disconnect mechanism and not file it with Waze, because they could at worst cause local problems. In addition, local closures are often not as well marked.

Also, the main reason Waze does not want disconnects is because there is a conflict between their closure system, which relies on knowing the path for the closure through a junction node to the closed segment, and the guidance to disconnect. There are other ways of phsyically disconnecting that might not conflict, but it bears some exploration.

So, modified alternative guidance for local:
* Set date-based segment and/or turn restrictions well before the closure
* Closure should occur automatically on the scheduled date
* Optionally, seal the deal AFTER the closure starts by disconnecting, in case the routing code ignores the scheduled restriction. Whether you physically disconnect should depend on your assessed: danger if routing overrides, likelihood of routing overrides, how badly the driver could get lost or lose time if routing overrides
* Set yourself a reminder for about 80% of completion time to check status of project. Fine tune end of scheduled restriction, and start checking regularly for any late changes to the construction end date.
* A few days before expected re-opening (allow a tile update cycle in between), reconnect roads, possibly fine-tune end of schedule on restriction
* Verify re-opening, then remove restriction entirely

For long term closures, instead of 80%, set yourself regular reminders to check progress against baseline dates, and adjust restriction schedule and calendar reminders accordingly.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby Fredo-p » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:06 am

I have incorporated the changes mentioned. Let me know how it looks.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:39 am

PesachZ wrote:I suppose I made the strikethrough (and S) templates for nothing, maybe you'll find a use for them elsewhere.

No template is wasted. :lol:
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby PesachZ » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:16 am

kentsmith9 wrote:
PesachZ wrote:I would also change the text of the disconnect bullet (to be placed as number 5) as follows:

old text wrote: Disconnect road segments - In general it is not recommended to disconnect road segments unless roads are permanently being disconnected. However, this method has been used for longer term construction projects while waiting for the scheduled restrictions feature.

To this
suggested new text wrote: {{S|Disconnect road segments}} - It is no longer recommended to disconnect road segments, unless the roads are permanently being deconstructed or closed. However, this method has been used in the past for longer term construction projects while waiting for the scheduled restrictions feature.

I recommend a slight adjustment on this suggestion since there is still a use for this situation.
suggested new text alteration wrote: Disconnect road segments - Road segments should only be physically disconnected if the road is no longer intended to connect or is being permanently removed. In the past, this method was used for longer term construction projects, but now the Road Closure form should be used.


I think this is better. I suppose I made the strikethrough (and S) templates for nothing, maybe you'll find a use for them elsewhere.
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Re: [Update] Road Closures

Postby kentsmith9 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:58 am

PesachZ wrote:I would also change the text of the disconnect bullet (to be placed as number 5) as follows:

old text wrote: Disconnect road segments - In general it is not recommended to disconnect road segments unless roads are permanently being disconnected. However, this method has been used for longer term construction projects while waiting for the scheduled restrictions feature.

To this
suggested new text wrote: {{S|Disconnect road segments}} - It is no longer recommended to disconnect road segments, unless the roads are permanently being deconstructed or closed. However, this method has been used in the past for longer term construction projects while waiting for the scheduled restrictions feature.

I recommend a slight adjustment on this suggestion since there is still a use for this situation.
suggested new text alteration wrote: Disconnect road segments - Road segments should only be physically disconnected if the road is no longer intended to connect or is being permanently removed. In the past, this method was used for longer term construction projects, but now the Road Closure form should be used.
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