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The great Hamburger Debate

Post by CTCNetwork
Hi,

I was sure we used to have a "Hamburger roundabout" topic but I sure can't find one anymore!

So onto the debate.

Nottingham. A610 and M1 J26. Nuthall island...

This is a hamburger. In fact it is really a right dogs dinner. I notice someone has now deleted the inner section that runs from the B600 to Nottingham Rd and the rest of the roundabout. Thanks!
I know for some people who had difficulty looking out of the big piece of glass at the front of their cars they were oblivious to the existence of this inner exit when counting their exit to the A610 into Nottingham. Thus occasional reports popped up - and educational replies ensued.. :) Theirs was the 3rd exit not the 4th. And so on..

However let us look at the poor chap coming off the motorway and heading to a house off Nottingham Rd (and the estate therein). He/she will currently be guided to the 4th exit. Or if they look out the window, the 3rd.

What should the right fix here. One that apieses the moronic idiots who don't look out their windows (and sorry, but there really are some quite moronic drivers in Nottingham, really!) or one that is actually correct?

Des. . . ;)
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Post by CTCNetwork
Hi,

Thanks for the posts. What a quandary.

One suspects that the lack of reports (so far) would be an indicator that most people accept it as is and are probably travelling to the a610 in one ot other directions. In those cases the roundabout works... I am not for making things overly complex when they don't need to be. :)

I also thought, maybe stupidly, that leaving the additional segment in the roundabout (because, after all, it is actually there!) whether connected or not (not in this case) would be a reasonable option?

Des. . . ;)
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Post by ditchi56
As Hublander points out, this is not what we mean by a "Hamburger". But it's certainly an unconventional junction which will flummox anyone who hasn't come across it before.

So far as I can see, the best way to drive around it is to find the road paint for the exit you want, and follow the lanes this indicates. At present, Waze thinks it's a conventional roundabout, so the only instruction will be "take the n'th exit onto road number/name". That's not bad, and may be the best we can do.

It would be handy to have a "keep left"/"keep right" where the roundabout divides, but I don't think it's possible to have that in conjunction with roundabout instructions. It would be possible to stop it being a roundabout, and make all the exits "keep/exit/turn left onto road number/name". Then add in "keep left onto outer ring"/"keep right onto inner ring". But this would have the massive disadvantage that Waze wouldn't announce the destination road (which is important as that's the road paint you want to follow) until after the ring keep left/right.

This supposes that the segments immediately after the ring split were named "inner ring" and "outer ring". If they were unnamed, the next of the destination would be picked up, so you'd get "keep left/right onto road number/name" instead. But for me that would be even more confusing as at that point you'd be staying on the roundabout rather than taking a road number/name exit".

Another alternative would be to have two nested roundabouts on Waze, but that wouldn't deliver the ring keep left/right.

One day, perhaps, Waze may let us write bespoke text instructions for a junction. But unless and until that day comes (and it won't even be "soon"), I can't see how to make this one less confusing. Maybe one of the real experts like Iainhouse or Timbones will have an inspiration?

Ian
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Post by fivesidecube
iainhouse wrote:I think I can see a possible solution. Rather than having the roundabout follow the outer arc, it could follow the inner arc. The outer arc would then be one-way segments with KL/KR instructions.
Brace yourselves, inbound newbie comment!

I agree with this, the inner arc is the roundabout, but I disagree with routing someone on to the outside arc and back onto the roundabout (access to Nottingham Rd, or A6002). If someone is confused enough to get the turning wrong, do you really want routing to try and push then against the road's white line markup? Considering the distance to the next roundabout on the A610(E).

I think that the second exit should be a common exit for the A6002(E) and A610(E) only, no return to the roundabout making Iain's instructions:
  • B600 heading N: At the roundabout take the first exit
  • A6002 heading NE: At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep left
  • A610 heading SE: At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep right, then keep/turn left
  • Nottingham Rd heading SE: At the roundabout take the 3rd exit
  • A6002 heading SW: At the roundabout take the 4th exit
End of newbie comment - and breath :-)
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Post by hublander
That Roundabout is not what I would call a Hamburger Roundabout. It is more like the M11 Jct 8 Roundabout Otherwise I have no idea what it is called. :(

As for Hamburger Roundabouts I know of 2 examples. There is one in Harlow and when I worked Oxford the one in Oxford

As for drivers looking out of the windows in London you have to get them to stop checking facebook and texting in London. :evil: My dad being a Motorcycle rider use to say cars have a new dashboard light. It flashes to say it is getting cold outside. :lol:
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Post by iainhouse
I think I can see a possible solution. Rather than having the roundabout follow the outer arc, it could follow the inner arc. The outer arc would then be one-way segments with KL/KR instructions.

As an example, these would be the instructions given for a driver leaving the motorway (coming from due west) for each "exit":
  • B600 heading N: At the roundabout take the first exit
  • A6002 heading NE: At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep left
  • A610 heading SE: At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep right, then keep/turn left
  • Nottingham Rd heading SE:
    At the roundabout take the 3rd exit (NB, a false exit stub could make that read as the 4th exit)
    or
    At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep right, then keep right, then at the roundabout take the 1st exit
  • A6002 heading SW:
    At the roundabout take the 4th exit (NB, a false exit stub could make that read as the 5th exit)
    or
    At the roundabout take the second exit, then keep right, then keep right, then at the roundabout take the 2nd exit
Obviously that means there will be a choice of routes for anyone traversing the eastern part of the roundabout. I'd like to hope Waze will be able to make a choice based on traffic, but I wouldn't rely on it. If this solution was tried, I would advise deleting & recreating the roundabout rather than re-using the existing segments: otherwise one route will have historic data that will skew the routing.

Tim's Handy Cross solution may well be appropriate. I confess I never entirely followed what he was trying to do there but, in terms of drastically reduced numbers of URs, it must work. :lol:

I'm disinclined to suggest a nested roundabout solution here. They work OK for what we would consider a "true" Hamburger - where there is a effectively a roundabout bypass lane that runs through the middle. But here, I don't think my nested solution could produce the required instructions. Plus, with so many connections, it could theoretically require up to 4 nested roundabouts to enforce a single, correct route for every possibility.
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Post by Timbones
This looks very similar to the much larger Handy Cross Junction on the M40 near High Wycombe, which I implemented as two nested roundabouts. It is complicated, but it does work.

Whether Nuthall Island needs something like this is a different matter...
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