Post Reply

Why No U-Turns in the UK?

Post by a2bpdq

Turn restrictions at a quiet location - U-Turn not allowed here

In Waze U-Turn means Course Reversal not specifically a U-Shaped Turn

End of segment course reversal is known in Waze as a U-Turn.

To some people, a U-Turn means only a U-Shaped turn. To some others it means only a course reversal. In reality, it can mean either, depending on context.

U-Turn has two meanings when it comes to driving, navigating and roads:
  • Meaning 1 - A course reversal
  • Meaning 2 - A U-Shaped turn
A U-Shaped turn is also a course reversal, but it's only one of the many kinds of course reversal that are possible.

Meaning 1 - A course reversal: Three-point-turn or turn in a tight loop to the left or right or reverse into someone's driveway, or drive in and out of a garage forecourt or lay-by etc

Meaning 2 - A U-Shaped turn: U-Shaped turn to the right (to the right in the UK and left-hand-drive countries, to the left in right-hand-drive countries)

In terms of the little arrows that turn you around at the end of segments in Waze, it only means Meaning 1, a course reversal.

Waze doesn't care how you turn around, only that you do and that you end up going in the opposite direction from when you started.

To prove this, set your Waze app to navigate to a nearby place. Now ignore the navigator and drive to a road with a dead-end. Now listen to the navigator. It will say something like "Do a U-Turn" or "After 800 feet do a U-Turn". That's the proof. Waze does not care how you turn around, only that you reverse your course.

Not convinced? Find a road with a narrower dead end. One where you can't possibly swing the car around in one go. Waze will tell you to U-Turn. Waze really does not care how you turn. Waze does not mean a U-Shaped turn.

By the way, you can do all this without leaving your seat if you use the Waze app and program a nearby route then add a stop along a dead-end road. You can then read the turn instructions and see the U-Turn instruction at the end of the dead-end road.

What is the obsession with Waze not allowing U-Turns in the UK?

U-Turns are legal in the UK, except where there are signs prohibiting them. I notice on the Waze Map Editor, on most UK roads, of all classes, that U-Turns are restricted. Waze is not allowed to U-Turn at almost every junction node in the UK, except dead-ends.

Is this a long-standing policy? Yes it must be.

It may not be a stated policy but it certainly is the way things are done, like an unwritten law.

I did some tests to make sure that navigation actually works when end of segment course reversal restrictions are lifted and it does. It works really well. Having an end of segment course reversal available just about anywhere can help Wazers to avoid unnecessary driving. End of segment course reversals (i.e. U-Turns) can save miles of unnecessary driving!**

Obviously there are safety concerns and nobody wants to put an end of segment course reversal in that might cause Wazers to break the law, run into danger or be a nuisance to other road users. There are good reasons for having end of segment course reversal restrictions in a lot of places, but I have found many more places where it would be safe and sensible to allow an end of segment course reversal but it has not been implemented yet.

Why don't we allow U-Turns?

My guess is there are a number of reasons:
1. Previous versions of Waze did not handle U-Turns and so it was pointless adding them.
2. By default, all new roads are set with no U-Turns, unless overridden. Editors tend to go with the default.
3. Editors might err on the side of caution and avoid using U-Turns anywhere because of the potential dangers.
4. Editors may misunderstand what Waze means by U-Turn* and therefore misunderstand what the restrictions mean.
5. Not seeing any other U-Turns on the map, editors may believe it is a policy not to allow U-Turns.
6. Like in Politics, U-Turns have a bad image, a negative image, like you did something wrong so you need to U-Turn - Editors may not like the negative image of U-Turns
7. There may be a plan for Waze to handle U-turns automatically in the future that requires us to leave U-Turns turned off for now.
8. Why change a U-Turn setting? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

From my examination of the problem, I would say it is broke and it needs fixing.

So why do we need U-Turns anyway?

There are four possible reasons that I can think of:

1. Starting off, the car may be pointing in the wrong direction. It needs to be turned around somehow. A U-Turn is often the fastest and most efficient way to turn around.
2. When resuming after a stop, added to the route in the app. A U-Turn may be the fastest way to get back on course for the next leg of the journey.
3. Should a Wazer make a mistake and take the wrong turn, Waze quickly calculates the new route. A U-Turn is often the quickest and most effective way to turn around.
4. A change in the road conditions ahead causes Waze to recalculate the route. Occasionally the best new route means turning around. A U-Turn might be the most time-saving and distance-saving method to get onto the new route.

Does having U-Turns really make a difference?

Absolutely. It means a Wazer will be turned around quicker. In extreme examples, it can save a lot of time and distance**.

Currently there are not many U-Turns allowed in the UK, so when Waze needs to turn Wazers around, it uses the most efficient method it can find. It either makes the Wazer go around a series of roads in a loop to get back to where they started or it sends them to the nearest dead-end.

Waze doesn't care how long the loops are or how quiet the streets are that lead to a dead-end. Waze ignores the many opportunities to turn about. Waze has no option because editors have set "No U-Turns".
If we remove a lot of the unnecessary U-Turn restrictions and allow more U-Turns, it will allow Waze to provide more efficient routes when re-routing.
Where can U-Turns be safely put?

I would like to create a guide to help editors. Please review the guide proposal and the whole topic and let me know if I'm missing something here. Otherwise, if everyone agrees and there are no objections, I would hope to see more U-Turns appearing on the UK map, improving Waze a little more for everyone.

[Proposal] Guide to Editing U-Turn Restrictions in the UK
  • Add U-Turn capability wherever possible.
  • When allowing U-Turns make sure it is safe and legal.
  • If in doubt, err on the side of caution and don't allow a U-Turn.
Avoid U-Turns in any of these situations:
  • Where there is a No U-Turn sign*** or in a No U-Turn Zone
  • Busy or fast roads
  • Going from a side road into a main road and back to a side road
  • At roundabouts (go around the roundabout instead)
  • At mini-roundabouts
  • On ramps
  • At traffic lights
  • At box junctions
  • At junction nodes where there is no place to turn (such as city boundaries and speed limit changes)
  • On fast or busy segments of road where it would be dangerous or disruptive or there is no room to turn and wait
  • On or near bends, dips, bridges or other road features where visibility is poor
  • Where there is a nearby, safer place to U-Turn by continuing
Examples of where U-Turns should go:
  • Quiet Streets in housing areas and villages
  • Going from a main road to a side road and back to a main road (where there is room to turn and wait)
  • On the road adjacent to where a parking road, a lay-by, or road such as at a petrol station is available where Wazers can turn in off the main road and wait to re-enter the main road
  • At quiet countryside lane junctions
In situations where there is a need for a U-Turn but there are no junction nodes, see if you can find a suitable turning place at the side of the road and put a new junction node here. The junction node will allow U-Turns to be added for both directions at this point.

Things to check before allowing a U-Turn:
  • Is this affected by a No U-Turn sign or No U-Turn zone? [If Y then stop]
  • Does the U-Turn mean going into a main road from a side road? [If Y then stop]
  • Is this junction node free from traffic lights, roundabouts, ramps and box junction markings? [If N then stop]
  • Is the visibility good enough to avoid drivers coming upon a U-Turner too quickly? (Consider night and day and adverse weather)[If N then Stop]
  • Is there room to turn around and wait? [If N then stop]
  • Will the U-Turn disrupt normal traffic? [If Y then stop]
  • Is it a fast road? [If Y then stop]
  • Is it a busy road? [If Y then stop]
  • Is there an alternative, safer U-Turn nearby? (check both directions) [If Y for both directions then stop]
Things to check before disallowing a U-Turn:
  • Answering the check list above, did any answers lead to stop? [If Y then disallow the U-Turn]
  • When disallowing a U-Turn always try to make sure that an alternative U-Turn is available nearby and if necessary try to create one
Tip: Every junction node has at least two U-Turns so make sure that all are considered in all possible directions. It is often necessary to only allow a U-Turn in one direction and not in the other direction. For example, you might want to add a U-Turn one segment away from a roundabout for traffic going away from the roundabout but not for traffic heading to the roundabout, as using the roundabout would be safer.

End of Proposed Guide

* So what is a U-Turn?
It certainly does not always mean a turn to the right in the shape of a U. That's only the literal meaning. U-Turn means any way of reversing direction. A three-point-turn, go around in a tight loop, back into someone's driveway or any other way to get the car turned and facing 180°. This is the dictionary meaning of U-Turn and it is the Waze meaning of U-Turn when applied to turn restrictions. Waze does not mean a U-shaped turn, it means a course reversal.

** An example on my doorstep of Waze not using U-Turns causing me a much longer drive
Take the wrong turn at a T-junction onto a road leading out of a housing estate and you end up on a 3 mile round-trip, going over a mile away, looping around in another housing estate, driving over a mile back, just to get back to where you went wrong. During the detour you pass many suitable turning opportunities but Waze won't use any of them because no U-Turns are being allowed.

A more extreme example
Without U-Turns Waze takes you an extra 11.6 miles, an extra 16 minutes, when doing this journey with a stop.

The first part of the journey is to go up the road for 0.8 miles. Then a stop is added a further 1 mile up the road. So the journey in total is, go 1.8 miles then come back 1 mile, 2.8 miles altogether, plus turning around.

With U-Turns allowed, there is a convenient lay-by just 0.2 miles up the road and the Wazer would be directed to turn around here and the total journey would be 3.2 miles and would take 5 minutes. That's 1.8 miles to the first stop, 0.2 miles to the lay-by, 0.2 miles back and 1 mile from the first stop to the second stop.

App shows the 12 mile trip needed just to turn around

As it is now, without U-Turns, the Wazer is directed to travel to a tiny railway station 5.8 miles further away, to a dead-end, where there is hardly room to turn. The total journey is 14.8 miles and takes 21 minutes. That's 1.8 miles on A9 to the first stop, then travel 4.6 miles to A889, then 1.4 miles and do a U-Turn, then 1.4 miles back to A9 and 4.6 miles back along the A9, then the final mile from the first stop to the second stop.

Go 12 miles just to turn around at this unlikely place

*** A No U-Turn sign looks like this

U-Turns are legal in the UK except where this sign is shown. Whether a three-point-turn here counts as a U-Turn is up for debate in the courts at the moment as councils and drivers fight over whether someone broke the no U-Turn law or not. Here Waze should definitely not be suggesting U-Turns. Anywhere else, it should, if suitable.
Master Raider
Master Raider
Posts: 334
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Post by Timbones
We have objected to the U-Turn instruction ever since it was introduced. Many of our roads are simply too small to be able to perform a U-turn at all, never mind safely.

What we really need is Waze to say "turn around when safe to do so", and let the driver decide where that point is based on their own observations of road conditions, personal experience, and vehicle size.
Posts: 7147
Answers: 2
Has thanked: 886 times
Been thanked: 2725 times
Timbones(6) • UK Coordinator • Forum Moderator • Closure Monitor
Scripts: WME Colour HighlightsWME Route TesterWME Geometries

Post by a2bpdq
Thanks for reviewing this. Much appreciated.

Turn around when it is safe to do so

To me it seems clear that when the Waze navigator gives a U-Turn voice command it means "Turn around and head back in the other direction". However, because it actually says "U-Turn" this causes brain-fog and some people think it means a swing around, which as Tim says, is rarely possible on UK roads.

With regard to the phrase "U-Turn", let's say Waze HQ was to change it to "Turn around when safe to do so" and let's imagine that was the only change, just replacing that phrase. Now things look a lot better. Now everyone can agree what it means as those words are not ambiguous at all. However, the way we have the map set up right now, it would make no difference at all. It would never say it, except at dead ends!

Now imagine we also change the map and allow a lot more end of segment course reversals. i.e. we make some of those turn-back arrows green at suitable places. Suddenly Waze will be able to say "Turn around when it is safe to do so" at places like petrol stations and on quiet streets and frankly anywhere that's suitable. The benefit would be quicker reversals of course when necessary and allowing Waze to be a bit smarter.

If Waze could be made to say "Turn around when safe to do so" instead of "U-Turn" I agree it would really make this work. This is a great idea.

The reality is though, many people, like me, do regard U-Turn to mean turn around when safe to do so already, so in our minds, nothing needs to change with the wording. I expect there are a lot of people around the world thinking the same. Maybe that's why it doesn't get changed. If Waze HQ think like me then I can understand why they would be reluctant to change the words. I would imagine some Wazers around the world would be appalled to think that Waze would change a perfectly sensible phrase like "U-Turn" to a less ambiguous phrase like "Turn around when safe to do so". If for no other reason than it takes longer to say. In fact Kate can say "U-Turn" four times over in the time she takes to say "Turn around when safe to do so".

There are also a lot of other people who get brain-fogged by the word U-Turn, like saying it's not possible in the UK. They do of course mean a U-shaped turn is rarely possible in the UK.

Anyway, for the benefit of the brain-fogged in the UK, I wish we could get Waze to change the wording just for the UK, for now.

When I hear people say, "No you can't turn around safely on UK roads" it makes me wonder how they manage with normal UK driving. Are they saying they never turn around? Are they so lucky that they never need to turn around? Or is it that they do turn around like the rest of us but feel they are risking their lives by doing so? It's just not true. A typical private car can turn around safely on UK roads providing it is done sensibly and a suitable place is chosen to do it.

Can I remind the Can't Turn Around Safely on UK Road Brigade that they were taught to do it safely as part of the UK driving test. The three-point-turn was always included; also the emergency-stop. They didn't do it in the outside lane of a dual-carriageway, at a busy cross-roads or on a level-crossing. They did it in the quiet streets, away from other traffic.

What is a quiet place to turn around? I used to drive through Central London in the middle of the night and I could turn anywhere at that time because there was hardly any traffic. Things change but generally, we can turn around more easily at night time in cities when there is less traffic. (Thinking about U-Turns with time restrictions, but that's for a later date).

In the day time when it's busy in the cities and towns, it's still relatively quiet on housing estates and on countryside roads. So there are always safe places to turn.

If we can accept the likelihood that Waze HQ would probably not change the phrase "U-Turn" in the app then we do have the option of educating ourselves, the Wazers in the UK, to understand that "U-Turn" means "Turn around when safe to do so". We could then start enabling a lot of the turn-back arrows and see the improvements.

Lost Wazers and U-Turns

Chris (Twister-UK) has also pointed out, quite rightly, that the Wazer should take some responsibility for their navigation and not blindly accept every voice command as mandatory.

I agree it's quite possible to take a different route and lead Waze the way we want to go. I do it all the time.

Where the lack of U-Turns become a problem is when the Wazer is new to an area and navigating with a lot more reliance on Waze. Typically taking great care and focussing intensely on the road ahead and listening to the voice commands and trying to work out things like "Does second exit mean this one or that one?" It's much easier to make mistakes and therefore there is more chance of needing to be turned around. The chances are the Wazer is not even looking at the map at this point because they are looking at the road ahead, road signs, traffic lights, cameras and trying to work out which lane goes left, right or straight ahead.

To get the Wazer back on track Waze looks for a suitable turning opportunity. That's where the problem shows up. Due to the current lack of places where it can say "Turn when it is safe to do so" it is forced to take the Wazer on a massive loop around unknown roads or to take them far away to a dead-end.

During this time of navigating to the dead-end or around the loop it doesn't tell the Wazer what's going on. It doesn't say, "By the way, we are in the process of turning about". Nope it says nothing! Just turn here, turn there. The Wazer maybe won't have a clue that it's happening.

However, If U-Turns are enabled, the Wazer is alerted pretty quickly because very soon Waze will say something about a U-Turn and 'ding' the penny drops. The Wazer is informed. A quick peek at the map shows that there is a blue line coming back past them on the other side of the road. Not so easy on voice only. I sometimes don't look at the map I just rely on voice commands. But even on voice only, the Wazer hears "U-Turn" and knows "Right I have to turn around where it is safe to do so". Waze might say, "Go 800 feet and do a U-Turn". The Wazer might think, "No problem I will turn around safely here and save 1,600 feet".

In fact, allowing more U-Turns will make Waze smarter. It will minimise the distance needed to turn around. It will take the Wazer as far as they need to go to a place to turn around safely. The map editors will make sure of that by checking that all U-Turns are in sensible places.

The Extreme Example

Chris, you were right that location is one of the places I was referring to where you could turn around. In fact, one of those lay-bys has a place built-in for doing U-Turns. A lane all marked out for turning around. Sadly that's for turning back North and we wanted to turn back South.

I chose this area in Scotland more to illustrate how daft it is that Waze would take you a great distance just to find a dead-end. If we enable more U-turns this would not need to happen.

I agree that doing things like changing turning restrictions to allow turning around at lay-bys might help to improve Waze, but I don't think it will be enough without having U-Turns marked on the main road too because Waze does not appear to use Parking Lot Roads for through routes. Waze seems to treat Parking Lot Roads like Private Roads and will only use them if you specifically set them as a destination or if they provide the only way to access a destination. In the extreme example case, it would make no difference.

Putting a U-Turn on the road here would be sufficient to tell the Wazer to use the lay-by.

A Web of Cul-de-Sacs

To further demonstrate how Waze can be improved by allowing U-Turns, imagine you are entering a housing estate with a series of cul-de-sacs. It's a particularly big estate and the distance to the end of any of the cul-de-sacs is say 6,500 feet (1.23 miles).

To turn around from the Start Waze takes you to Nodes 1, 2, 3 then End A, then back Nodes 3, 2, 1 to the Start
Distances: Start to Node 1 = 500 feet, Node 1 to Node 2 = 2,000 feet (same between all remaining nodes), Start to End A = 6,500 feet

As it is now, to turn you about, Waze will take you 1.23 miles to the end of a cul-de-sac and then it will bring you back 1.23 miles to where you are now.

If we enable U-Turns at all nodes here (as it's a very quiet housing estate), Waze will take you to the very first junction (500 feet) and turn you about there. Not only that, it will tell you immediately, "In 500 feet do a U-Turn" so you are informed. You may even decide to turn around right there at the Start.

This example:
  • contrasts the suggested method (U-Turns enabled) with the existing method (No U-Turns)
  • contrasts the nippy 1,000 feet turnaround (0.19 miles) compared to the ridiculous 13,000 feet (2.46 miles) turnaround
  • contrasts the short distance with a longer distance, 13 times longer
  • contrasts smart Waze with Waze made to look stupid.
Also, note there are no lay-bys in the cul-de-sacs example so changes to lay-bys would have no effect here either.
Master Raider
Master Raider
Posts: 334
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Post by theMadcabbie
A little note... I'm now sorry I started this discussion... naughty old me
Posts: 580
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 138 times
Hungerford's Top Taxi Company ... kedits.png images/ranks/EditLevel5_Badge.png

AM for Thames Valley / Sierra Leone & Ghana / Isle of Man / Scotland, Shetlands and Outer Scottish Islands :evil:

Post by CTCNetwork

It is also worth noting that sometimes waze will just turn off sensible routing to do "stupid stuff" to get past a legitimate restriction or routing issue.
So, U-Turns off.

Des. . . ;)
Posts: 1610
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Post by a2bpdq
This is a good point. "Stupid stuff" can happen. We do need to be cautious. This is why I have proposed a set of guidelines which would aim to prevent this happening.

Newport M4 Diversion Anomaly

Straight off when reading this point I remember the diversion route around Newport when the M4 is closed. Part of the alternate route that Waze sometimes suggests is to turn left into a road, go around a roundabout and then come back down the same road. It all looks a bit daft. Waze does this because there is no right turn into the road.

Alternate Route - Heading North East - Turn Left, go around the roundabout and come back down the same street

If we enable all U-Turns without caution, this would become even worse as Wazers would be guided to turn left and then U-Turn too.

The guidelines prevent this though. There are several rules that would not allow a U-Turn here and the U-Turn would not be implemented for all these reasons:
  • There is not room to turn around and wait
  • A U-Turn would disrupt normal traffic
  • It Is a busy road
  • There is an alternative, safer way to turn around nearby (the roundabout)
  • No U-Turns at roundabouts
So, I think we have the "stupid stuff" covered in this case.

No U-Turns

With regards to there being no U-Turns at all, this makes no sense when you consider that there are already hundreds of thousands of U-Turns around the UK. Every dead-end has a U-Turn. Whether the U-Turn is enabled or disabled at dead ends makes no difference, Waze always does a U-Turn at dead-ends, if it routes that way.

If U-Turns were so bad then we would already have a lot of "stupid stuff" going on because of the existing U-Turns. I don't think this is the case.

What has happened in the past is certainly worth bearing in mind. I understand that Waze has responded chaotically in the past to having U-Turns incorrectly placed. We really do have to be careful using them.

At the same time, we do need them because otherwise "stupid stuff" is happening already when it comes to re-routing. As shown in the initial post, Wazers can be taken way off course just to turn about because U-Turns are not allowed.

Cautious Approach

I welcome the cautious approach. The whole point of allowing U-Turns is to make Waze work better and not worse.

It would be sensible therefore to introduce U-Turns gradually and monitor them to see how they go. We can test the guidelines and make improvements where necessary.

There is no need to suddenly turn on U-Turns everywhere as this approach could lead to chaos if something was not done right. It is better to limit the introduction to small areas, in a controlled way. Test the routes once they are live in the map and give it some time before progressing to add more.

Caution: Improving Routes with U-Turns

We need to be particularly careful where Waze might start using U-Turns to improve routes (not just when re-routing but when U-Turns are included as part of a new route). If this does happen it would probably mean there is a calculated benefit in doing a U-Turn but at the same time, as humans, we get perturbed by the machine logic of going up the road and coming back down again to save a few seconds.

When more U-Turns are turned on, this is likely to happen more. I think we can take care of this problem by following the rules, modifying the rules where necessary, careful placement of U-Turns and by testing and monitoring routes once the U-Turns become live on the map.
Master Raider
Master Raider
Posts: 334
Has thanked: 238 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Post by theMadcabbie
For a long time now we have been fortunate, we were given a brain, which should allow for free thought, however then came along the lovely little app caused Waze, unfortunately this rendered some people unable to think for themselves.

These people are now called.... Image

Perhaps some people need to start using brains, followed by this amazing invention they put into cars a long time ago called a Windscreen

Am I being sarcastic HELL YES.... I started this discussion and now regret it - The CM's and other senior editors have spoke and confirmed what I though Green U Turn arrows are a NO NO.... end of story, please put this one to bed now.
Posts: 580
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 138 times
Hungerford's Top Taxi Company ... kedits.png images/ranks/EditLevel5_Badge.png

AM for Thames Valley / Sierra Leone & Ghana / Isle of Man / Scotland, Shetlands and Outer Scottish Islands :evil:

Post by iainhouse
I'm sorry - these posts are just too massively long to read through - and I'm known for my long posts! They seem to filled with far too many technical quibbles that won't mean anything to actual Waze users.

It would be very nice if Waze had a "turn around when possible" instruction. But it absolutely does not. It instructs drivers to make a u-turn at a specific location and will repeat this instruction and the distance on approach to the point, reinforcing the instruction to turn around at this point. This is, quite simply, dangerous and stupid. Changing the words Waze uses will not change that.

Yes, u-turns are legal all over the place. That doesn't make them safe at all, or protect you from a charge of "driving without due care & attention" for trying it somewhere unsuitable. The only way to obey Waze is either to make the u-turn when you are told to do so - and likely crash, or stop dead in the middle of the road until you can make the u-turn - and have everyone behind you wait. In the US, where roads are wide & separated, u-turn instructions might be OK. On narrow UK roads they are not.

Shall we get into a discussion of u-turn versus "reversing around a corner" as taught (at least in the past) in the UK driving test? Or Waze routing to the end of a dead end to use the u-turn there? I don't have the patience today. :lol:

The simple answer is that enabling u-turns in Waze leads to bad, misleading and frequently dangerous instructions. Unwritten it may be, but it is a UK rule. We do not enable u-turns in the UK except in exceptional circumstances - and I would strongly recommend anyone doing so to leave a map comment to explain it, because experienced editors will routinely nuke them.

A couple of years ago, we even went so far as to accept an offer from Waze HQ to disable every
u-turn on the UK map. I don't think they would have offered if it wasn't an acceptably sensible way of treating routing.
Posts: 11144
Answers: 1
Has thanked: 2185 times
Been thanked: 8132 times ... c4/AGC.png
My scripts: WME FixUI WME Presets :ugeek:
I want to go to a commune in Vermont and deal with no unit of time shorter than a season

Post by theMadcabbie
Well said Iain.
Posts: 580
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 138 times
Hungerford's Top Taxi Company ... kedits.png images/ranks/EditLevel5_Badge.png

AM for Thames Valley / Sierra Leone & Ghana / Isle of Man / Scotland, Shetlands and Outer Scottish Islands :evil:

Post by TheMKLightning
theMadcabbie wrote: Perhaps some people need to start using brains, followed by this amazing invention they put into cars a long time ago called a Windscreen
I think that one won't help much! :lol:
Area Manager
Area Manager
Posts: 764
Has thanked: 173 times
Been thanked: 113 times ... 00k_4c.png
AM for West Wales Rheolwr Ardal Cymru Gorllewin