Makes sense to me.

I would point out that the client does a have a dirt road road setting. I had been assuming that this setting would still apply to the renamed "unpaved" road type and would be changed to be the unpaved roads settings. If "unpaved" become a checkbox property, I would still think that setting should apply so that user can decide whether they want to be routed over unpaved roads.

We would then need an additional setting as to whether the user wants to include "4x4/Offroad" roads if these are ever to be included in routes.

The other issue that comes to mind is that I have seen in reference to unpaved roads are roads that are only open seasonally. Is this something that should be addressed within the options for these road types, addressed with time based restrictions, or addressed manually as the roads open and close.

I don't think the code should be country specific, so whatever is done I would expect to be done worldwide.

I think primitive roads and unpaved can be two different concepts. In other words, there can be major roads that are unpaved. There are people that want to avoid perfectly passable dirt/gravel roads. Those are the people who we are catering to with an unpaved checkbox.

What seem to me to be a rather different problem is that waze has indicated that ultimately the plan is to have all roads mapped even they are not typically passable for the normal passenger car. Those it would seem to me should be designated with a separate road type. When waze implements vehicle types then there should be a 4x4 option for vehicle type that would need to be selected to route over primitive roads. Otherwise they shouldn't be used in routing. I'm not sure if this would work given the current scheme, because it seems to me that this should not be a case of don't use the road if there another alternative. Rather, unless you have positively indicated that you want 4x4 roads they should never be used in routing. But we know waze has a difficult time with never.

As an aside I'm surprised by the following statement:

skbun wrote:I think editors are in pretty clear agreement as to what a freeway and major highway is, and on the other side, a client user ALSO understands what it means to say 'Avoid major highways'.

I pretty much think that major highway is the road type with the least agreement among users and editors.

Haydenray wrote:Does anyone really want waze to give it's users the "option" to route through this dangerous and undefined area?
Consider that the county has a much better and safer road classification.
It is "Gravel road", or "unpaved".

My understanding is that yes waze does want to give that option, which is why I see a distinction between unpaved and primitive.

PhantomSoul wrote:I would think that any unpaved road, by definition, cannot be a highway.

Any definition needs to apply worldwide and I suspect that unpaved highways do exist.

Including NC-12.

PhantomSoul wrote: IMHO, a road being unpaved, no matter what its pack quality, automatically disqualifies it from being any kind of highway, as well as a primary street, regardless of what kind of marker it may have, or whether there are any other roads in the area. Main roads are paved, regardless of who maintains them. Period.

I understand that this discussion is in the United States forum, but the checkbox for unpaved roads is not an issue that is or can be limited to the US. There are places mapped by waze where the major roads between distant towns are not paved. In the recent past, if not currently, if you don't type these roads as highways, waze won't find a route between the distant towns. I just don't think you can make the statement "main roads are paved" for the entire waze community.

Can't imagine that it does. My understanding is that such roads are currently mapped as highways in waze.

Haydenray wrote:Out west, when we see a sign that says "primitive road" ...."road not maintained"; that is when we stop, check our map and turn around !!
It is about the lowest classification there is. By definition, the county does not maintain a primitive road. But they are required to warn the traveler with a sign: "Primitive Road, not maintained".

Since when are any such signs required? In Utah and indeed most of the southwest, you leave the hardball at your own risk.

There are many high quality dirt roads that are kept graded and depending on the snow levels open year round (this is NOT just a seasonal issue). And then there are roads that get a once over once a year, there are roads that get graded once every five years, and there are roads that are only kept open by the 4x4 trucks that cruise them hunting (many of which the feds and enviro's want to close and eliminate), or the roads that are in the base maps but are really 1800's era government mule trails that can be hard to follow on foot. I've deleted "roads" that I grew up hunting on until the feds cross hatched them to close them (plowed trenches across the road every couple hundred feet doing far more damage to the terrain than the road ever did.) I knew those were no longer viable but can we count on editors doing so, or is someone going to be led up a closed road (cross-hatched or not) only to find a forest service agent at the other end with a ticket book ready?

Not that all opinions are not valid but this discussion should be most led by those who operate in areas with such primitive roads. As I've said in multiple threads on this topic, people have died because they followed their GPS on a dirt route that petered out to nothing and by the time they realized they were in trouble, they didn't have the skills to turn around (a 20 pt turn may be required) and get back out and they were so far in they didn't have the gas even if they could manage to turn around.

I am a big fan of the checkbox option. We should then discuss the exact criteria for what gets marked as an unpaved street and what gets left as a 4X4 trail. I say if there is not an outlet and no residential structures on the road leave it a 4X4 (once we get the checkbox). If the editor can feel fairly certain the road is at least periodically maintained and there is an outlet back onto a hardball road then it gets the street category.

This checkbox for unpaved and a determination of what will qualify as which road type is a good idea, it does allow us to more safely edit into the backcountry but we still need to be very careful about which roads/trails actually get paved. Despite Ehud's stated desire, every trace paved is NOT a good idea.

Haydenray wrote:Does anyone really want waze to give it's users the "option" to route through this dangerous and undefined area?

Not really, in my opinion. Not until we can tell the app exactly the capabilities of our vehicle, and select not just between dirt (yes/no) but 4x4 or worse (yes/no) as well.

My main point was that you claimed "out here in the west it's required" and I countered to make the point that while some states may so require such a sign most of them don't

AlanOfTheBerg wrote:

Riamus wrote:I have to get over there and check it out. A state highway on the sand? Sounds fun.

And some state highways utilize ferries.

Just need bigger wheels to go off-roading there. You know that monster trucks float due to the massive tires.