That said they can’t navigate from Napa to Mammoth Lakes. I just tried it and it won’t. It will go Mammoth Lakes to Napa, but not the other way around.
I then tried my home address in Fairfield to 3516 Main St, Mammoth Lakes, CA and that won’t work, which reminded me that My home to Lee Vining would not work a while back, but I was busy with the trip and forgot to look into it when I got home.
That’s odd. What roads do trips to both Mammoth and Lee Vining share that a trip from Santa Rosa doesn’t?
Try successive navigations from, say, Vacaville, Davis, Sacramento, etc. until you find one that works. You might have to trim from the other end, too. Then work “backwards” from there.
Google’s routing is somewhat different from Waze’s routing.
Google’s quickest route intercepts 395 off of Hwy 89 in Topaz. Waze takes the driver all the way into Nevada where 88 joins in Minden… 89 is completely bypassed.
Also, Waze’s #2 route is completely different from Google’s… it remains on 88 where 50 kicks north and carries the Carson Pass Hwy all the way out through Jackson and into Lodi (a beautiful trip I might add). Google’s #2 goes through Stockton, and at the 108/120/E15 junction, #2 is north on 108, and #3 is 120 through Yosemite (30 miles shorter and 10 minutes longer than the “fastest” route).
Things I tried;
Napa to Mammoth Lakes ; No
Napa to Bishop ; Yes
Fairfield to Mammoth Lakes; Yes
Link Rd, Fairfield to Mammoth Lakes; No
Link Rd, Fairfield to Lee Vining or Bishop; Yes
Lee Vining to Mammoth Lakes; Yes
Santa Rosa to Mammoth Lakes; Yes
Your issue lays here. Drop a pin west of green valley road on 80 and you can not get to mammoth lakes, drop a pin east of green valley and you can.
And as you said, you cant get from napa to mammoth lakes, but you can get from mammoth lakes to napa…
Note, and clue… Green valley road is an elevation 1. EB 80 towards mammoth is an elevation 1, WB towards napa is at ground level
In fact, many elevation levels need to be worked in this area. Freeways are ALWAYS ground elevation and everything should go over or under them.
I would say infact that a few UR’s in this area can be resolved by cleaning up elevation issues…
Last time I searched the forums for discussion of elevation issues (several months ago) all I found was an anecdote about elevation 4 causing less efficient routing when there were sudden elevation jumps. I didn’t find anything about total failure to route due to elevation. Meanwhile the maps I’ve seen are littered with crazy elevation differences for no good reason but I haven’t seen URs yet that I could definitively tie to them. If a freeway going from ground to 1 and back with no apparent cause broke routing, I would think half of California would be offline…?
This is not at all to disagree about how to set freeway elevation. It’s just that I had no idea that slight elevation changes (ground to 1!) could break routing. Maybe I’m totally missing something :?
All I could find in the wiki is this, which seems to suggest elevation doesn’t do anything at all as far as the client app is concerned:
If it’s becoming clear that even slight elevation changes can cause failure to route, that calls, I would think, for an update to the wiki…?
It has become more and more obvious to us that elevation changes are having an affect on routing. We’ve seen multiple examples of this lately.
Here you have and EB freeway at 1, and a cross street at 1, and you can’t navigate EB. But you can navigate WB where the freeway is at ground, but the cross street is at 1… Plus you have several sections of freeway there that jump from ground to +1 and then back to ground.
I will start a discussion with the champs to see what we can do about the wiki, meanwhile I would bet you if the elevations in this area are corrected you will see an improvement to the navigation issue.
This seems very strange, especially since there Wilk be cases where freeways can’t be at ground. The sunniest case is two crossing freeways. But there are times when a freeway segment will not cross another one that will require a different elevation, usually because of the crisscrossing ramps and local roads near an interchange. If routing breaks due to elevation, it is a bug. If there is done intentional behavior to modify routing due to elevation changes, I can see that, but they would have to give some rationale. But as I see it, that’s a bug.
In this particular instance, as Nick suggests, please normalize the routing here, wait for a tile update, and let’s see. If that works great (though I would love to try breaking it again, afterwards), we can follow up from there. If not, at least we will know it is diverting else.
Note that there have been a number of cases lately where junction data was simply FUBAR and the junction, and subsumes connecting segments had to be rebuilt. I would work on that if the elevation thing doesn’t pan out.
I believe there may be a max miles so you may have to divide drive into 2 segments. I live in San Leandro and I can route to Mammoth Lake it’s 340 miles, I tried from Oakland and I could not.
There may be some issues with distance + complexity constraints timing out the router. When trips get over certain distances, certain options for routing are pruned out of the decision tree, but I don’t believe this is near a trigger point.
I spent far more time trying to duplicate nnote’s results yesterday than I should have, and couldn’t. I thought at one point that I had it narrowed down to the junction at the exit to Suisun Valley, but the results were just so variable. Using a constant specific destination in Mammoth (Mammoth hospital on Sierra Park) I tried many many things. Sometimes the exact same spot on the road would work, sometimes it wouldn’t, but all but one time, LiveMap wouldn’t route beyond (west of) that exit junction. The app was even less successful.
In light of my tests, I’m tempted to lean toward the damaged junction info, but the overpassing roads at the same level should definitely be corrected, regardless, even though Waze claimed to have fixed that issue a while back.
I also have to wonder if there isn’t something happening closer to the Mammoth end of things. Not likely, but who knows?
Changing the elevation of the Green Valley overpass to 2, so that the overpass and the freeway were not at the same level, fixed the problem so that I can now navigate from my home in Cordelia to Mammoth Lakes. Napa to Mammoth is still broken, but at least I have something to look for.
This can’t be an issue of excess miles, because Santa Rosa is further than Napa, and Mammoth to Napa works fine.
That is really interesting and helpful. Can we be sure that was it? Sometimes when a thread gets posted a number of different fixes can get put in by more than one editor but they don’t all get discussed or reported.
Maybe you would be willing to put it back the way it was and see if the problem returns? While everybody else leaves it alone for a week or two of course :lol:
Excellent, another example of elevation affecting navigation. It’s good to have these documented for hard proof.
One thing though, is that I don’t understand why you didn’t just drop the freeway elevation to ground, where it is supposed to be, and leave the overpass at 1.
Now you have the overpass going from ground to two, then back to ground.
Remember, what you’ve seen here… elevation affects navigation…
Just to clarify, it appears that conflicting elevation is what causes problems. Two segments that overlap but have same elevation will create an issue.
Yes, I should clarify. Elevation affects routing in both instances, cross streets and continuing on the same street. I’ve seen both, an number of times.
As far as continuing on the same street, it seems to have the biggest affect when the elevation change is between nodes, and there are streets at other nodes to route off and on. For instance if A street changes elevation between 1st street and 2nd street node, it will kick you off at first, onto B street, and then back onto A street via 2nd street.
What I haven’t as of yet seen have an affect is if elevation changes at a node in the middle of A street. For instance, if there is a spare node on A street (with no road connected to it) and the elevation changes after your already on A street.
@@@@1st@@@@@@@@@@@@@2nd st
@@@@|@@@ eG@@N@@@ e1@@@|
A->-----.->-----------.->--------------.–>– (eG =ground e1=Elevation 1 N=Node >= direction travel @=blank space to get symbols to format properly…) I know looks horrible hope it makes sense…
Essentially because there is no where for waze to kick you off at.
The much more likely issue that was “solved” by changing the elevation: the edit caused a tile rebuild for that tile and corrected a prior faulty build.
Are you referring to Junctions or Geonodes? I would really like to move for a Waze-wide moratorium on using the term, “node” by itself: it is ambiguous.
An elevation change is necessarily always going to happen at a Junction, so I’ll assume that’s what you intended.
So, just to make sure I understand: you’re saying that if A Street changes from Ground to Elevation 1 at 1st Avenue, then changes back to Ground at 2nd Avenue, that there may be cause for a reroute on 1st Avenue to B Street. then back down 2nd Avenue to A Street, assuming that 1, 2 and B are all at Ground? Is that correct? In other words, you’re saying there’s some sort of intermittent penalty just for changing elevation, correct?
I second the notion of changing the Green Valley bridge back to Elevation 1 without touching anything else and seeing what happens (and, nnote, in answer to your question about why vaderss didn’t “just” change the freeway segment to Ground, it could have something to do with Rank Locks: vaderss is 3, I-80 is 5)
@vaderss - a few minor points about the immediate area of Green Valley and I-80.
-The westbound ramp just north of the freeway is actually two-way road until just before it actually hits the freeway. Might help those folks, in what looks like a park-and-ride or carpool lot there, route properly from the lot, especially if you put a PLR in to the lot.
-There is a period on Rd., going over the bridge.
-Signage at the ramp intersection just south of the freeway seems to indicate that the Green Valley/Lopes division occurs there.
Junctions are roundabouts, nodes are nodes, geopoints are geometry.components of OpenLayers.Geometry.Point. The upcoming “Junction Box” are crossroads. And whoever decided to call geometry points nodes is evil for causing confusion when talking about specific things that will be misunderstood.
